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    Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Contribution Discussion Page: 1 2 3 4  Previous   Next
Vol N + Box "Box Set Contents" poll
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DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantRifter
Reg. Jan 27, 2002
Registered: March 13, 2007
United States Posts: 2,694
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Quoting ya_shin:
Quote:
Quoting Rifter:
Quote:
I'm not arguing against putting the first volume in as a child to the box.  I'm saying its idiotic to then say the followup volumes that clearly are SUPPOSED to go into that box to complete the set CAN'T be added to the box set contents.

I knew that. I was asking why... With reference to the fact, that we don't do this in other cases either.

Quoting Rifter:
Quote:
Here's what I mean:

1. User buys boxset XYZ consisting of Vol 1 and a slipcase that can hold all seven vol in the series.
2. He creates a profile for the box using the UPC, and one for the vol. using disc ID.
3. The profile for vol. 1 is attached to the box profile via the boxset contents button.
4. 2 months later Vol. 2 is purchased.  User profiles it and adds it to the contents of the box.
5. Over the next 9 months, the remaining 5 vol. are purchased and added to the contents.
6. One year from #1, user has boxset XYZ with all 7 vol. in the box.
7. Subsequently, 17 other users download all 7 child profiles and the box profile, and link all together.

That's the way the process should work.  Bluetoothpaste or whatever his name is, wants to restrict anybody from adding those subsequent six vol. to the box contents, which would effectively prevent follow-on users from knowing which children to grab for a complete set.

That's maybe how it should work, in your opinion anyway, but the program won't let you. Once you own Vol1+ main profile any subsequent downloads of that profile will not change the Box Set Content in your local collection. So you'll still have to do that yourself manually. So there is really not a lot of a point to add them in the first place, going against a long standing tradition that profiles should reflect the original release.


The hell it won't!  I have already added to the boxset contents after the fact and it works just fine.

You guys are the ones self-imposing restrictions on this.  And there is no long standing tradition about not adding content to a master profile of a boxset.  I found one of my own boxset masters during the frenzy to repopulate the database that I had forgotten to add the child profiles to.  Over a year after the master was set up, I downloaded and added the 7 disc profiles for that box set.  If we had to do things as you suggest I couldn't have done that. 

BTW, I didn't have to download the master profile AGAIN as you imply, I already had it.
John

"Extremism in the defense of Liberty is no vice!" Senator Barry Goldwater, 1964
Make America Great Again!
 Last edited: by Rifter
DVD Profiler Unlimited Registrantnuoyaxin
prev. known as ya_shin
Registered: March 13, 2007
Taiwan, Province of China Posts: 3,398
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John, I am not going to re-explain, as you apparently aren't listening to what I say.
Achim [Ya-Shin//Nuo]
Registered: May 29, 2000 (at InterVocative)
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantTheFly
Registered: March 18, 2007
United Kingdom Posts: 103
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Quoting Rifter:
Quote:
I found one of my own boxset masters during the frenzy to repopulate the database that I had forgotten to add the child profiles to.  Over a year after the master was set up, I downloaded and added the 7 disc profiles for that box set.  If we had to do things as you suggest I couldn't have done that.


What? Why not? Not a single person in this thread has suggested that profiles of the later volumes should not be submitted at all - that's clearly nonsensical as they are standalone products. So what's stopping you simply looking at the back of the case and using the UPC to download the profiles, then adding them to the box profile in your local db?
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorSquirrelecto
Registered: March 13, 2007
United Kingdom Posts: 793
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I had to read the whole of page 1 before I knew what this thread/poll was about.

I voted as follows:

The Box profile should contain only volume 1 (or whichever volume it comes with) in its Box Set Contents.
DVD Profiler Unlimited Registranttas314
Registered: March 24, 2007
Canada Posts: 240
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Quoting Kinematics:
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Ok...

Quote:
1. User buys boxset XYZ consisting of Vol 1 and a slipcase that can hold all seven vol in the series.

Yes.

Quote:
2. He creates a profile for the box using the UPC, and one for the vol. using disc ID.

Sometimes.  The profile for the included disc is more likely to be added by UPC.  There are occasional instances where the UPC is not on the included disc package, so you'd use disc ID there.


I think the profile for the disc included in the box should be created by disc ID. The UPC belongs to the single (non-box) version, will have a SRP of $29.98 or what ever. The disc in the box should have it's SRP set to $0 since it's included in the box price.


Quote:
Technical notes, trying to work out the exact program behavior:

....

Given this, does it change any of how you feel about the issue?


In the current version it seems the box set data is not used for anything, you always have to manually add profiles . Adding daughter profiles like Rifter wants to do will have no effect FOR NOW.
In the past it was different, if you had a box+1 and the other discs in your wish list, then bought the box all the stuff in the "box contents" would also be moved to your owned list, not good!

The current box set system is kind of stuck on with Duct tape and string. I expect it to be updated in a future version, and I expect it will be done with normal box sets in mind (something you buy all at once in one package). What it will look like I don't know, it could just be automating the downloading of daughter profiles when you enter the box UPC, or it could be a new interface like tabs on the main profile, but what ever it is I expect it will cause grief for anyone buying a box+1 if there is anything else in the box set data.
Tom.
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorKinematics
Registered: March 16, 2007
United States Posts: 280
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Quoting Rifter:
Quote:
My entire problem with this issue was two-fold.  First, some were saying it wasn't even a boxset, when it clearly is.


That was the question that was resolved in the first poll, and shouldn't even be an issue now.  If anyone is bringing that up now, they shouldn't be argued with, just pointed at the initial poll.  I don't remember seeing that in this thread, though.

Quote:
And second, that we shouldn't be able to even upload the profile of follow-on discs, let alone add to the contents of it.


This I think is where main confusion lies.  I have not gotten the impression that anyone is suggesting that the follow-on discs not be profiled and added to the main database.  It's only been a question of whether they should be added to the box profile's Box Set Contents field in the main database.  That's what this poll is about.


John, please step back, take a deep breath and relax a bit.  This is not nearly as complicated as you're making it out to be.

I'm trying to make each poll on how to handle volume 1 + box sets as narrowly specific as possible.  I didn't expand on what this poll is and is not about in the first post as I couldn't think of how any confusion could be had about it, but it looks like I'll need to revisit that.  From how close the votes are, it's probable that I'll need to rewrite it and run a new poll next week.


To clarify, this is not (and has not been to anyone in this thread except for you, John) about whether additional discs should be profiled and added to the database.  The default assumption is that they will be because that's how it's done at present.  Unless something is specifically brought up in the initial question, it should be assumed that the user will be using the program normally with regard to any particular point.

Also, to Tas314, this is not about how the first volume should be added (UPC vs Disc ID) and priced.  I gave my opinion on that while working through John's points of order, but it is not local to the argument, and discussion about it should be held for another time.


And, while I hope that the above will help clear things up for you, John, I'm also going to address your following post in which you seem to completely misinterpret nearly everything that was said.

Quote:
The hell it won't!  I have already added to the boxset contents after the fact and it works just fine.


He did not say that it was not possible to add Box Set Contents after the fact.  He said that it was not possible to update a local profile (run Refresh Updated Profiles from the menu, toolbar, or DVD profile General Info page) and have it update the Box Set Contents.  This is due to the fact that Box Set Contents are automatically locked locally, and will not be changed by running a refresh.  It is not about whether you can manually change the Box Set Contents.

Quote:
You guys are the ones self-imposing restrictions on this.


There has been no attempt to impose any additional restrictions.  The question of this poll, and all discussion on it, has solely been about how to handle one particular field (Box Set Contents) on one particular profile (the box profile made for a vol 1 + box product) with respect to what gets uploaded to the main database.

Quote:
And there is no long standing tradition about not adding content to a master profile of a boxset.


He did not say that.  The "long standing tradition" has been that "correct" info for a profile is what was originally sold (original covers, original SRP, etc), and is not modified when any of that changes in later re-releases.

Quote:
I found one of my own boxset masters during the frenzy to repopulate the database that I had forgotten to add the child profiles to.  Over a year after the master was set up, I downloaded and added the 7 disc profiles for that box set.  If we had to do things as you suggest I couldn't have done that.


What is being proposed would have absolutely no effect on your ability to do that.  The only question is whether you should be allowed to then upload the changed Box Set Contents back to the main database.

Quote:
BTW, I didn't have to download the master profile AGAIN as you imply, I already had it.


He is not referring to downloading the profile (ie: Add New Disc), he is referring to refreshing the profile for updates from the main database (ie: Refresh Updated Profiles).
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantRifter
Reg. Jan 27, 2002
Registered: March 13, 2007
United States Posts: 2,694
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Quoting ya_shin:
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John, I am not going to re-explain, as you apparently aren't listening to what I say.


If you think I'm not getting it, then perhaps you aren't explaining it the way you think you are.  I do read and comprehend English very well. 
John

"Extremism in the defense of Liberty is no vice!" Senator Barry Goldwater, 1964
Make America Great Again!
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantRifter
Reg. Jan 27, 2002
Registered: March 13, 2007
United States Posts: 2,694
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Quoting ya_shin:
Quote:
John, I am not going to re-explain, as you apparently aren't listening to what I say.



Quote:
That's maybe how it should work, in your opinion anyway, but the program won't let you. Once you own Vol1+ main profile any subsequent downloads of that profile will not change the Box Set Content in your local collection. So you'll still have to do that yourself manually. So there is really not a lot of a point to add them in the first place, going against a long standing tradition that profiles should reflect the original release.


Why then do you say "once you own vol1+ main profile any subsequent downloads of that profile..."?

Why would I download it again?  If I've got it the first time, all I need to do is add the others to it as they come out.  And adding the rest to the online master doesn't change anything, because if you don't have the child profiles ALSO in your local, the boxset contents won't be there anyway.
John

"Extremism in the defense of Liberty is no vice!" Senator Barry Goldwater, 1964
Make America Great Again!
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantRifter
Reg. Jan 27, 2002
Registered: March 13, 2007
United States Posts: 2,694
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Quoting Kinematics:
Quote:
Quoting Rifter:
Quote:
My entire problem with this issue was two-fold.  First, some were saying it wasn't even a boxset, when it clearly is.


That was the question that was resolved in the first poll, and shouldn't even be an issue now.  If anyone is bringing that up now, they shouldn't be argued with, just pointed at the initial poll.  I don't remember seeing that in this thread, though.

Quote:
And second, that we shouldn't be able to even upload the profile of follow-on discs, let alone add to the contents of it.


This I think is where main confusion lies.  I have not gotten the impression that anyone is suggesting that the follow-on discs not be profiled and added to the main database.  It's only been a question of whether they should be added to the box profile's Box Set Contents field in the main database.  That's what this poll is about.


John, please step back, take a deep breath and relax a bit.  This is not nearly as complicated as you're making it out to be.

I'm trying to make each poll on how to handle volume 1 + box sets as narrowly specific as possible.  I didn't expand on what this poll is and is not about in the first post as I couldn't think of how any confusion could be had about it, but it looks like I'll need to revisit that.  From how close the votes are, it's probable that I'll need to rewrite it and run a new poll next week.


To clarify, this is not (and has not been to anyone in this thread except for you, John) about whether additional discs should be profiled and added to the database.  The default assumption is that they will be because that's how it's done at present.  Unless something is specifically brought up in the initial question, it should be assumed that the user will be using the program normally with regard to any particular point.

Also, to Tas314, this is not about how the first volume should be added (UPC vs Disc ID) and priced.  I gave my opinion on that while working through John's points of order, but it is not local to the argument, and discussion about it should be held for another time.


And, while I hope that the above will help clear things up for you, John, I'm also going to address your following post in which you seem to completely misinterpret nearly everything that was said.

Quote:
The hell it won't!  I have already added to the boxset contents after the fact and it works just fine.


He did not say that it was not possible to add Box Set Contents after the fact.  He said that it was not possible to update a local profile (run Refresh Updated Profiles from the menu, toolbar, or DVD profile General Info page) and have it update the Box Set Contents.  This is due to the fact that Box Set Contents are automatically locked locally, and will not be changed by running a refresh.  It is not about whether you can manually change the Box Set Contents.

Quote:
You guys are the ones self-imposing restrictions on this.


There has been no attempt to impose any additional restrictions.  The question of this poll, and all discussion on it, has solely been about how to handle one particular field (Box Set Contents) on one particular profile (the box profile made for a vol 1 + box product) with respect to what gets uploaded to the main database.

Quote:
And there is no long standing tradition about not adding content to a master profile of a boxset.


He did not say that.  The "long standing tradition" has been that "correct" info for a profile is what was originally sold (original covers, original SRP, etc), and is not modified when any of that changes in later re-releases.

Quote:
I found one of my own boxset masters during the frenzy to repopulate the database that I had forgotten to add the child profiles to.  Over a year after the master was set up, I downloaded and added the 7 disc profiles for that box set.  If we had to do things as you suggest I couldn't have done that.


What is being proposed would have absolutely no effect on your ability to do that.  The only question is whether you should be allowed to then upload the changed Box Set Contents back to the main database.

Quote:
BTW, I didn't have to download the master profile AGAIN as you imply, I already had it.


He is not referring to downloading the profile (ie: Add New Disc), he is referring to refreshing the profile for updates from the main database (ie: Refresh Updated Profiles).


OK, based on what you wrote above, I understand the issue.  I have an excellent command of English, but I don't read between the lines, and I don't read people's minds.  Up to now, their explanations didn't make sense which is why I was misunderstanding this.

So, the whole question boils down to this:  If I add subsequent volumes, why shouldn't I be able to file an updated profile to include those additions to the contents in the master profile?  What's the point of even doing a child profile for the add-on volumes if you can't include the fact that they exist in the master's contents area?
John

"Extremism in the defense of Liberty is no vice!" Senator Barry Goldwater, 1964
Make America Great Again!
DVD Profiler Unlimited Registrantstanger89
Registered: March 26, 2007
Posts: 5
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I voted to only include the volumes included with the initial release, and to explain here's a copy of what I just posted in the other thread:

Quote:
As such I think a good compromise is to add these as a parent box set and child profile(s) for the volume(s) included, and then lock it at that.  Individual users can then locally add the discs they have collected, be it some or all.

Remember, DVD Profiler has two purposes:

1)  Tracking releases
2)  Tracking collections

The rules/procedures/etc that we follow must support both of these as best possible.


Basically, DVD Profiler has two primary purposes from my perspective, one is to track DVD Releases.  This is IMO the primary purpose the online database from which we download profiles.

The second purpose is to track our personal collections, this is the reason we download profiles and add them to our own database.

Since this question pertains to how we should handle Vol x + Box releases in the database, IMO we should limit them to how the release was done, that is the box, and the volume(s) included in the release.  This way when you lookup the UPC, you get an accurate representation of the box set (and if auto-downloading of child profiles is added in the future, the downloaded profiles will be accurate as well).

At the same time, it allows us to personally track our collections, since each of us will potentially be at a different stage of collecting the entire series (some may have given up, some may be ahead, etc), it allows each user to have their own personal version of the set contents at any given time.
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorBlueloopstah
Registered: March 18, 2007
United Kingdom Posts: 55
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Quoting Rifter:
Quote:

So, the whole question boils down to this:  If I add subsequent volumes, why shouldn't I be able to file an updated profile to include those additions to the contents in the master profile?  What's the point of even doing a child profile for the add-on volumes if you can't include the fact that they exist in the master's contents area?


The first point: because even if you do update the master profile it won't download the box set contents changes to the users local database on a refresh so it is redundant at the minute, and it helps keep the database cleaner if redundant information is kept out of it. (This might change, and then my view on this might also change in the future.)

The second point: because the DVDs are released normally the same as any other DVD, so would require their own profiles just like any other DVD.
The box release is an optional extra provided by companies to satisfy a section of the fanbase who like pretty boxes.
The DVDs are released independantly from the box anyway, as a lot of people won't actually own the box (they are often limited in number to a few thousand) and therefore won't require the master.
 Last edited: by Blueloopstah
DVD Profiler Unlimited Registranttas314
Registered: March 24, 2007
Canada Posts: 240
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Quoting Rifter:
Quote:


So, the whole question boils down to this:  If I add subsequent volumes, why shouldn't I be able to file an updated profile to include those additions to the contents in the master profile?  What's the point of even doing a child profile for the add-on volumes if you can't include the fact that they exist in the master's contents area?

Because that data is not valid for all users, the only thing that true for all owners of the box is that they have all the stuff that came in the box.

Not everyone is going to have the same volumes in their box at any given time. Your main profile should match what you own and the only way to do that for everyone is if everyone adds what they have locally.

As others have pointed out there are several Funimation titles that have both regular and limited versions of each volume. Some people have the box + the LE versions for 2+ some have the box + regular for 2+ and since the LE versions were quite limited there are some people with a mix of both.
Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya is another example where there are regular and SE versions of all discs.

For these sets there is no one correct list of box set contents. The only way that it can be correct for all users is if each user adds what they own to the profile locally.
Tom.
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorKinematics
Registered: March 16, 2007
United States Posts: 280
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Quote:
So, the whole question boils down to this:  If I add subsequent volumes, why shouldn't I be able to file an updated profile to include those additions to the contents in the master profile?  What's the point of even doing a child profile for the add-on volumes if you can't include the fact that they exist in the master's contents area?


At present you could also say (somewhat speciously) that there is no point in uploading any of that information at all.  None of the child profiles are included with the box profile when you do a fresh download of the box profile, and running an update on a box profile will never change the Box Set Contents field (cf: see my earlier post testing technical points).  At best we can speculate on how the program might be changed in the future to better make use of the information (eg: keeping Box Set Contents on download, automatically downloading attached child profiles, etc).

The choice devolves to a large extent to personal preference and speculation about how the program might evolve, with some elements of database 'correctness'.  Part of the problem stems from the current weakness of boxset handling in the program.  Unfortunately there's not much we can do about that.

1) The box should only include what was originally purchased.
- It shows the user exactly what they can expect to get when purchasing the product (if viewed as preview).
- This allows some distinction between multiple releases of the same box (empty box [eg: Boogiepop Phantom], box + vol 1, box with full collection [eg: His & Her Circumstances]), assuming they each have their own UPCs. [Note: I rarely personally see these variants to compare with each other, so there's a little bit of speculation here on my part; if anyone can clarify with specifics, please do so.]
- This is somewhat in line with current rules that state that modifications made to a release (eg: covers, SRP) at any point after the initial release are not to be uploaded to the main database.
- It doesn't require that someone 'correct' an incorrect set of collected child profiles (when the child profiles themselves may be either normal or limited editions).
- If the program is modified such that it downloads attached child profiles, it should only download what was actually purchased, not what may or may not eventually be added (users shouldn't be forced to have the entire collection if they never purchased any discs after the first one).  Depending on how it is programmed, this may also relate to how profiles are moved between categories (Wishlist/Ordered/Owned).

2) The box should include everything that might be added to it.
- This allows the user to see which profiles are intended to belong with the box as a set (if viewed as preview).
- If the program is modified such that it downloads the attached child profiles, it will download all the volumes for the series along with the box.  Depending on how it is programmed, this may cause issues when moving discs between categories as they are purchased.


Those arguing for choice #2 have not adequately presented their arguments on expected benefits of that choice, so what I have is a bit sparse.  I would appreciate it if you could enumerate any additional specific benefits or advantages of the choice, as well as any points about how it syncs with current rules.

No matter which choice is made, it will not affect how users will have to deal with the box profile within their local collections at present; they will always have to add the appropriate child volumes manually.
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorBlueloopstah
Registered: March 18, 2007
United Kingdom Posts: 55
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Quoting Kinematics:
Quote:

- This allows some distinction between multiple releases of the same box (empty box [eg: Boogiepop Phantom], box + vol 1, box with full collection [eg: His & Her Circumstances]), assuming they each have their own UPCs. [Note: I rarely personally see these variants to compare with each other, so there's a little bit of speculation here on my part; if anyone can clarify with specifics, please do so.]


The Complete collection boxes I own are either new boxes specifically made for the complete release or the same box as the box + 1 profile with a new UPC sticker, or new base sticker placed over the original.
 Last edited: by Blueloopstah
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantRifter
Reg. Jan 27, 2002
Registered: March 13, 2007
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Quoting tas314:
Quote:
Quoting Rifter:
Quote:


So, the whole question boils down to this:  If I add subsequent volumes, why shouldn't I be able to file an updated profile to include those additions to the contents in the master profile?  What's the point of even doing a child profile for the add-on volumes if you can't include the fact that they exist in the master's contents area?

Because that data is not valid for all users, the only thing that true for all owners of the box is that they have all the stuff that came in the box.

Not everyone is going to have the same volumes in their box at any given time. Your main profile should match what you own and the only way to do that for everyone is if everyone adds what they have locally.

As others have pointed out there are several Funimation titles that have both regular and limited versions of each volume. Some people have the box + the LE versions for 2+ some have the box + regular for 2+ and since the LE versions were quite limited there are some people with a mix of both.
Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya is another example where there are regular and SE versions of all discs.

For these sets there is no one correct list of box set contents. The only way that it can be correct for all users is if each user adds what they own to the profile locally.



Its just as I thought.  You people (with a few exceptions) don't understand how the online is supposed to work.  All the information is supposed to be available to one and all.  That means all the children, all the masters, all the boxset contents, etc.  Your LOCAL DB is where you fine tune things to satisfy your particular phobia.  With or without children, with or without boxset contents, and so on.

There is no way to do that following the wishes of those who wish to restrict what gets in, because in most cases it is colored by personal preference.  There are a lot of things in the online database that I don't like, but a lot of others do, so I keep my own counsel and set up my local db as *I* want it, just as was intended by Ken.  It's time everybody did that.
John

"Extremism in the defense of Liberty is no vice!" Senator Barry Goldwater, 1964
Make America Great Again!
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantRifter
Reg. Jan 27, 2002
Registered: March 13, 2007
United States Posts: 2,694
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Quoting Blueloopstah:
Quote:
Quoting Kinematics:
Quote:

- This allows some distinction between multiple releases of the same box (empty box [eg: Boogiepop Phantom], box + vol 1, box with full collection [eg: His & Her Circumstances]), assuming they each have their own UPCs. [Note: I rarely personally see these variants to compare with each other, so there's a little bit of speculation here on my part; if anyone can clarify with specifics, please do so.]


The Complete collection boxes I own are either new boxes specifically made for the complete release or the same box as the box + 1 profile with a new UPC sticker, or new base sticker placed over the original.



The only reason for a prohibition on altering a profile with data from a reissue is that we presently don't have the capability to track information for UPCs that are the same but have been reissued.  You can't pick and choose WHICH parts you can update or not.  If the UPC changes on a reissue, then we CAN enter a new profile for that UPC.  However, if the contents remain the same - same UPC or same Disc ID - then the contents has to stay with the initial profile.  That is simply a database issue, not because of any prejudice against new releases.
John

"Extremism in the defense of Liberty is no vice!" Senator Barry Goldwater, 1964
Make America Great Again!
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