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    Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Contribution Discussion Page: 1 2 3 4  Previous   Next
Vol N + Box "Box Set Contents" poll
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DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorKinematics
Registered: March 16, 2007
United States Posts: 280
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Careful, you're derailing again, John.

Quote:
Its just as I thought.  You people (with a few exceptions) don't understand how the online is supposed to work.  All the information is supposed to be available to one and all.


No one is saying that the information should not be available.  We're merely arguing about which variation on how the information is presented should be considered 'correct' with respect to the rules on how people contribute profiles.

We don't list every alias any actor has ever used in a single cast credit.  We don't list every change in cover art or SRP that ever gets released.  Thus, strictly speaking, "all" of the information is not available to one and all.  However we don't provide that information because of technical limitations in the program itself (as you yourself point out), and convenience/usability factors on entering the data.

The Box Set Contents field also has a technical limitation: it can't differentiate between what was in the original package and what is 'supposed' to go in the box.  Because of that we have to decide which of those options is the better choice for the database as a whole.  Also note that, if you include all child volumes as Box Set Contents in the main database, you still lose information -- you lose the detail showing exactly which volumes were included with the box's purchase.

Thus the choice can be considered as the decision on how we can retain as much information as possible.  Some data is going to be lost no matter which option is chosen, so it's a question of either which data is more important, or which data is more easily recoverable by other means.

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That means all the children,

The children are being added.  That has not changed.

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all the masters,

The master (box) profile is being added.  That has not changed.

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all the boxset contents,

The specifics of which are being debated in this question..

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Your LOCAL DB is where you fine tune things to satisfy your particular phobia.  With or without children, with or without boxset contents, and so on.


With or without children, yes, that's purely local choice.  You can download the child profiles at your option and they will match what's in the main database.
With or without boxset contents is slightly different.  When you download the box profile it does not match what's in the main database.  Thus it must be fine-tuned locally regardless of which choice is made for the main database.

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There is no way to do that following the wishes of those who wish to restrict what gets in, because in most cases it is colored by personal preference.


This entire debate is heavily colored by personal preference   However I feel that you're incorrect in stating that "there is no way to do that following the wishes of those who wish to restrict what gets in" (with respect to locally customizing which information you wish to keep of the Box Set Contents) due to the fact that you don't have an option in the first place.  All of that information is lost when you download the profile.  Even if the information was not stripped, it does not prevent local customization.

Side note: as long as a single profile cannot be a member of more than one box set, I don't think it is feasible to not strip Box Set Contents from profiles, due to conflicts in the local database.

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There are a lot of things in the online database that I don't like, but a lot of others do, so I keep my own counsel and set up my local db as *I* want it, just as was intended by Ken.  It's time everybody did that.


For each rules decision we make, there are those who will do that.  The point of the discussion, however, is to get a general agreement on the way things should be done on the level that everyone has to interact with - the main database.

So far your only argument has been that all the discs in the set belong together.  I am not disputing that.  However the user must enter that information manually, regardless of what decision is made about what Box Set Contents to include in the main database, so in a sense that becomes redundant data.  As such, I feel more total information is maintained by including which discs should be considered part of the original purchase.

Edit: corrected a sentence to ensure clarity.
 Last edited: by Kinematics
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorKinematics
Registered: March 16, 2007
United States Posts: 280
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Also, John, please don't feel that I'm picking on you.  I'm still fully open to having my mind changed on this issue.  As I said at the start, I'm not convinced there is a single correct answer here.  However so far you're the only one putting forth any arguments in favor of the complete listing, and most of my points when arguing with you have just been trying to eliminate confusion.  From the vote totals, it's obvious that there are other people here who agree with you, but none have stepped in to explain why.

Still, the more I try to work through the explanations, the more convinced I am that the single-disc option is the better choice.  You're going to have to work hard making actual points and solid arguments to seriously sway me.
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorKinematics
Registered: March 16, 2007
United States Posts: 280
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Final day of this vote, and it's tied at 18-18.  This vote is closed, but not resolved.

Summary: A several arguments put forward for only including the disc that came with the box, a couple arguments for including all discs.  Despite the equal number of votes, only Rifter was writing any arguments for the multi-disc side (misunderstandings aside), which is somewhat frustrating because there's no further reasoning given for the silent voters' choices.

Because of that, there's a strong likelyhood that the option voted for was primarily done as simply a personal preference.  Even with the misunderstandings over the course of the debate, I suspect that putting up another poll will not generate a markedly different result.

Thus I would like to request that Ken declare by fiat which method we should use.  There are actual arguments involved, and Ken can review them if he wishes, but at the moment people mainly just want to do it 'their' way and are unlikely to reach a solid consensus resolution.  A declaratory judgement means we can move on to other issues.
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantRifter
Reg. Jan 27, 2002
Registered: March 13, 2007
United States Posts: 2,694
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Quoting Kinematics:
Quote:
Final day of this vote, and it's tied at 18-18.  This vote is closed, but not resolved.

Summary: A several arguments put forward for only including the disc that came with the box, a couple arguments for including all discs.  Despite the equal number of votes, only Rifter was writing any arguments for the multi-disc side (misunderstandings aside), which is somewhat frustrating because there's no further reasoning given for the silent voters' choices.

Because of that, there's a strong likelyhood that the option voted for was primarily done as simply a personal preference.  Even with the misunderstandings over the course of the debate, I suspect that putting up another poll will not generate a markedly different result.

Thus I would like to request that Ken declare by fiat which method we should use.  There are actual arguments involved, and Ken can review them if he wishes, but at the moment people mainly just want to do it 'their' way and are unlikely to reach a solid consensus resolution.  A declaratory judgement means we can move on to other issues.


You can't just conclude its personal preference.  In my opinion the who issue boils down to common sense.  Now, I'm gonna be blunt because I don't know how to say it subtle and get the meaning across.  It is completely idiotic for a manufacturer to sell a box big enough to hold 7 individual keep cases with just one volume, as anything but a starter set - clearly intending the buyer to purchase the remaining volumes and add them.  It is equally idiotic to read the rules in such a way as to disallow adding those other volumes to the box set contents of the master profile as they become available.

Now, because you have to profile each disc individually anyway, and manually add it to the box set contents, what is the point of saying the online profile of the box and first disc is ALL you can have for that set?  That simply defies logic.  Making that information available in the master lets everybody set this up the way they want it.  If somebody (however illogically) wants only the box and the first volume, the contents won't matter.  But if somebody wants ALL of it, then it does matter.

No matter how you cut it, to be fair to everybody, you have to include it all.  It is far easier to remove if necessary than it is to add, and if somebody comes along after all the volumes are out, they only need look at the box set contents to get the IDs for the whole set of discs.
John

"Extremism in the defense of Liberty is no vice!" Senator Barry Goldwater, 1964
Make America Great Again!
DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantStar Contributorschultzy
Xbox Live: squeekyfoot
Registered: March 13, 2007
United States Posts: 550
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Quoting Rifter:
Quote:
Quoting Kinematics:
Quote:
Final day of this vote, and it's tied at 18-18.  This vote is closed, but not resolved.

Summary: A several arguments put forward for only including the disc that came with the box, a couple arguments for including all discs.  Despite the equal number of votes, only Rifter was writing any arguments for the multi-disc side (misunderstandings aside), which is somewhat frustrating because there's no further reasoning given for the silent voters' choices.

Because of that, there's a strong likelyhood that the option voted for was primarily done as simply a personal preference.  Even with the misunderstandings over the course of the debate, I suspect that putting up another poll will not generate a markedly different result.

Thus I would like to request that Ken declare by fiat which method we should use.  There are actual arguments involved, and Ken can review them if he wishes, but at the moment people mainly just want to do it 'their' way and are unlikely to reach a solid consensus resolution.  A declaratory judgement means we can move on to other issues.


You can't just conclude its personal preference.  In my opinion the who issue boils down to common sense.  Now, I'm gonna be blunt because I don't know how to say it subtle and get the meaning across.  It is completely idiotic for a manufacturer to sell a box big enough to hold 7 individual keep cases with just one volume, as anything but a starter set - clearly intending the buyer to purchase the remaining volumes and add them.  It is equally idiotic to read the rules in such a way as to disallow adding those other volumes to the box set contents of the master profile as they become available.

Now, because you have to profile each disc individually anyway, and manually add it to the box set contents, what is the point of saying the online profile of the box and first disc is ALL you can have for that set?  That simply defies logic.  Making that information available in the master lets everybody set this up the way they want it.  If somebody (however illogically) wants only the box and the first volume, the contents won't matter.  But if somebody wants ALL of it, then it does matter.

No matter how you cut it, to be fair to everybody, you have to include it all.  It is far easier to remove if necessary than it is to add, and if somebody comes along after all the volumes are out, they only need look at the box set contents to get the IDs for the whole set of discs.


what he said
Schultzy - http://www.michaelschultz.net
grenactics - The art of skillfully fraggin one’s opponent with the use of grenades or other compact explosive devices that are thrown by hand or projected.
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorKinematics
Registered: March 16, 2007
United States Posts: 280
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Quote:
You can't just conclude its personal preference.  In my opinion the whole(sp) issue boils down to common sense.


"Common sense" explanations usually boil down to ways to justify personal preference.   However I'm not saying that the choice voted for is being made -solely- based on personal preference; I'm saying that, for all the arguments bandied about, none of them are definitive enough to create a locked-down justification for one stance or the other (to enough people to create a sufficient majority).  Thus, in the end, the deciding factor is most likely personal preference.  This is evidenced by a lack of extensive debate (aside from the fair bit of it that was due to the misunderstandings) while still ending up with roughly equal vote totals.

I'm not saying you're wrong in your stance of The Way It Must Be (though my arguments for the other side still stand); I'm saying that there's (most likely) too much dependant on personal preference to be able to reach a definitive consensus.  As such, I want to appeal to a higher power (Ken) to step in and just make a decision one way or the other so that we can avoid the endless arguments.

I won't argue further on the reasoning for either choice right now; we've already gone over that.  The only issue is, should we redo the poll (cleaned up and rewritten to account for the issues in this thread), or just ask Ken for a declaratory judgement?

Edit: I will allow that there is enough potential for confusion over how the poll was worded and what its intents are that a new poll may be the better choice.  I would prefer to move on, but if you (John, the primary arguer for the other option) feel that a new vote is better, I'll withdraw the request for declaratory judgement and build a new poll.  I'll write it up in this post before creating the new poll thread so that we can agree on the wording and such.
 Last edited: by Kinematics
DVD Profiler Unlimited Registranttas314
Registered: March 24, 2007
Canada Posts: 240
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Quoting Kinematics:
Quote:

I won't argue further on the reasoning for either choice right now; we've already gone over that.  The only issue is, should we redo the poll (cleaned up and rewritten to account for the issues in this thread), or just ask Ken for a declaratory judgement?


I think it's best to ask Ken. If he is unclear about anything he can always post a question or PM the poster in question.

Ken will have some idea of where he plans to go with box sets, we can only guess.
Tom.
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorKinematics
Registered: March 16, 2007
United States Posts: 280
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Well, no reply from Rifter.  I'm just going to leave this up over the weekend, hopefully Ken can make a reply on which way to go, even if it's just a "I don't want to make a decision on this just yet" type.  I'll probly start working on the wording for the next poll, in case Ken doesn't want to say one way or the other yet.

Actually, I'm not sure how closely Ken tracks these threads.  Should I be PMing him to bring it to his attention, or just expecting him to be reading it?
 Last edited: by Kinematics
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantRifter
Reg. Jan 27, 2002
Registered: March 13, 2007
United States Posts: 2,694
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Quoting Kinematics:
Quote:
Well, no reply from Rifter.  I'm just going to leave this up over the weekend, hopefully Ken can make a reply on which way to go, even if it's just a "I don't want to make a decision on this just yet" type.  I'll probly start working on the wording for the next poll, in case Ken doesn't want to say one way or the other yet.

Actually, I'm not sure how closely Ken tracks these threads.  Should I be PMing him to bring it to his attention, or just expecting him to be reading it?


What am I supposed to reply to?  I've already stated my preferences and my beliefs.  Is that not good enough.  Regardless of how many others have weighed in on this, you pointed out yourself that there are just as many who agree with me as don't.  That ought to tell you something.

I know you mean well, but these incessant polls are not really helping all that much.  We had most of these problems solved and had a working compromise in place that has held more or less for the last two years.  Now, with 3.0 out, everybody seems to want to throw it all out and start from scratch.  That is not only shortsighted, its just plain idiotic.  Progress is made be building on the successes of the past, not by throwing the baby out with the bath and starting over for what seems to be just some disgruntled user's visiion of how it ought to be.
John

"Extremism in the defense of Liberty is no vice!" Senator Barry Goldwater, 1964
Make America Great Again!
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorKinematics
Registered: March 16, 2007
United States Posts: 280
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What am I supposed to reply to?

>>>
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The only issue is, should we redo the poll (cleaned up and rewritten to account for the issues in this thread), or just ask Ken for a declaratory judgement? ... I will allow that there is enough potential for confusion over how the poll was worded and what its intents are that a new poll may be the better choice. I would prefer to move on, but if you (John, the primary arguer for the other option) feel that a new vote is better, I'll withdraw the request for declaratory judgement and build a new poll.



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We had most of these problems solved and had a working compromise in place that has held more or less for the last two years.  Now, with 3.0 out, everybody seems to want to throw it all out and start from scratch.


It's more that, now that we can get the rules amended in a way that everyone can see, let's get all this information solidified and put out there so that you're not depending on everyone knowing everything that's going on in the forums.  You shouldn't need to be in the inner circle to know what the rules are supposed to be.

Further, the 'working compromises' are less than completely evident.  In the case of the box set contents (just because that happens to be the current topic), I see entries with no contents (because it's "not a box set"; see previous poll), volume 1 (the independantly sold version), all volumes (your preference), and volumes 2-N (with the apparent assumption that the parent profile is also the volume 1 profile).  Which version is a user supposed to follow with no guidelines within the rules?  The problem is, even if there was a compromise reached, it has not been disseminated to the general public.

Now, if an actual concrete discussion and decision has been made on these issues, point out where it occurred and we can just request that Ken add the appropriate wording to the rules.  Even without that, though, I would expect that if such a discussion had occurred, someone would be able to step in and explain the conclusions that had been reached regarding the various points that were brought up.
DVD Profiler Unlimited Registranttas314
Registered: March 24, 2007
Canada Posts: 240
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From the 3.03 beta ...
Quote:
Box set children are now moved when moving the parent


I said that I thought changes were coming to make real box sets (a set you you buy as one unit) easier to work with, but would break a Riffer box.

Here is the first one, I expect more will follow it.
Tom.
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantRifter
Reg. Jan 27, 2002
Registered: March 13, 2007
United States Posts: 2,694
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Quoting tas314:
Quote:
From the 3.03 beta ...
Quote:
Box set children are now moved when moving the parent


I said that I thought changes were coming to make real box sets (a set you you buy as one unit) easier to work with, but would break a Riffer box.

Here is the first one, I expect more will follow it.


I am aware of the change for 3.0.3, and its about time; but what are you referring to with "a Riffer box"?  And what exactly is getting broke?

I suspect you are referring to the fact that I said ALL volumes should be included in the box set, adding them as they hit the marketplace.  This is obviously a quirk of anime titles (selling an empty box set container with the first volume of the set) as I have never seen such a device used in any other context.  But that is immaterial.  A box set is a box set, whether you buy it all in one chunk, or add the individual volumes over a period of time.  Therefore, if you move the master, ALL the children should move with it, however many that might be and whether or not they have all been released yet for sale.
John

"Extremism in the defense of Liberty is no vice!" Senator Barry Goldwater, 1964
Make America Great Again!
DVD Profiler Unlimited Registrantgardibolt
digitally Obsessed
Registered: March 13, 2007
Posts: 1,411
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I'm inclined for the whole completed boxset; is there anyone who buys a vol. 1 + box and then never buys the rest of the volumes?  And if you do that, it's easier to delete the remaining volumes than it is for the vast majority of users to add them in.
"This movie has warped my fragile little mind."
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorBlueloopstah
Registered: March 18, 2007
United Kingdom Posts: 55
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Quoting tas314:
Quote:
From the 3.03 beta ...
Quote:
Box set children are now moved when moving the parent


I said that I thought changes were coming to make real box sets (a set you you buy as one unit) easier to work with, but would break a Riffer box.

Here is the first one, I expect more will follow it.


If that's the case then I'm going to have to arse about manually moving profiles back into my wishlist or ordered lists every time I buy a box + 1 that someone has added extra DVDs to.

Definately a no extras added in my opinion now, I wasn't that bothered before but now I'm dead against it.
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