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    Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Contribution Discussion Page: 1 2 3 4 5  Previous   Next
Method to determine the "production year"
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DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar Contributorhydr0x
Registered: April 4, 2007
Germany Posts: 822
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Quoting skipnet50:
Quote:
hydrox:

The copyright date of a film may have absolutely nothing to do with the release date. It is not unusual for some films to sit on a shelf for years after filming in search of a distributor. I such cases the copyright date and theatrical have little or nothing in common and I would say the theatrical release(problematic, to be sure) would be the more useful.

Skip


That's why i said "on average". And I still think that's true, copyright year on average is closer to the real production year than theatrical release year. (Just think about examples of your case and of all the movies not released in the year of production but a year or two later and I'm sure you'll agree). Of course in such cases as the ones you mentioned theatrical release is more useful, but we all know that. There are movies where copyright is closer and ones were theatrical is. The question is: what's better in general?

@Grendell

What kind of reasoning is that? Yes, the rule contradicts the field name. But that leaves two choices, and not one as you seem to want make us believe. options:

1) Change the field name
2) Change the rule for the content

both work, but the question is which is better (in terms of validity AND of ease of use)
- Jan
 Last edited: by hydr0x
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorTigiHof
Keep your options open
Registered: March 13, 2007
Germany Posts: 465
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Quoting pplchamp:
Quote:
You cannot say without a shadow of doubt that all DVD's will have copyright informationa at the end of the credits.

That one is easy to fix in the rules. We would simply have to add the theatrical release date as a "fallback method", like this "Enter the year of the copyright date from the film credits. If no date is present, enter the theatrical release date."

Quoting pplchamp:
Quote:
For TV Shows...

Do you use Episode #1 or episode #22? Why?

What if #1 is 1982 and #22 is 1983?

Most tv seasons (in the U.S.) run from Sept to June (two different years).

I dont't understand your argument. That is exactly why the rule proposal states "Enter the year of the earliest copyright date from the episode credits in the set / on the disc." The other proposal uses the "earliest air date". So you would have to use an earliest date in any case. Whether a season spans one or two years doesn't make a difference in any case.

Quoting pplchamp:
Quote:
I say let the rules stay as they are. Why complicate things.

Using the copyright date would make things simpler (because you wouldn't have to look up third party information in at least 99% of the cases), not "more complicated". Maybe you should give it another thought, Erik.

Quoting Rifter:
Quote:
There is no good reason to use copyright date.  Copyright doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the actual date the film was made.  Copyright could just as easily be the date of the screenplay, or the date the production company was formed, or any of a dozen other things.

Do you have any proof to back up this proposition, John ? Or is this simply one of your usual "Things are like that because I say so" statements ?

Quoting Rifter:
Quote:
Now you want to change canoes in midstream and force the change of virually every profile in the database with a different date that may or may not be present in the credits of a movie or TV show.

Now that is an interesting point. It really would be interesting to see how many profiles would have to be changed. When I get home this evening I will give it a try and check the copyright date of 20 randomly picked movies against the theatrical release date. This should at least give us a hint. My guess is, at most one or two profiles would have to be changed, maybe none.

Quoting Skipnet50:
Quote:
The copyright date of a film may have absolutely nothing to do with the release date. It is not unusual for some films to sit on a shelf for years after filming in search of a distributor. I such cases the copyright date and theatrical have little or nothing in common and I would say the theatrical release(problematic, to be sure) would be the more useful.

Useful or not, Skip, the field is named "Produced" in the Profiler and "Production Year" in thr rules, not "Released" or "Release Year". So your statement "The copyright date of a film may have absolutely nothing to do with the release date" is only backing up my position.
Michael
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantRifter
Reg. Jan 27, 2002
Registered: March 13, 2007
United States Posts: 2,694
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Quoting hydr0x:
Quote:
Quoting skipnet50:
Quote:
hydrox:

The copyright date of a film may have absolutely nothing to do with the release date. It is not unusual for some films to sit on a shelf for years after filming in search of a distributor. I such cases the copyright date and theatrical have little or nothing in common and I would say the theatrical release(problematic, to be sure) would be the more useful.

Skip


That's why i said "on average". And I still think that's true, copyright year on average is closer to the real production year than theatrical release year. (Just think about examples of your case and of all the movies not released in the year of production but a year or two later and I'm sure you'll agree). Of course in such cases as the ones you mentioned theatrical release is more useful, but we all know that. There are movies where copyright is closer and ones were theatrical is. The question is: what's better in general?

@Grendell

What kind of reasoning is that? Yes, the rule contradicts the field name. But that leaves two choices, and not one as you seem to want make us believe. options:

1) Change the field name
2) Change the rule for the content

both work, but the question is which is better (in terms of validity AND of ease of use)


But you're forgetting one little inconvenient fact.  Nobody gives a damn about the copyright.  Virtually everybody (aside from some people here?) uses theatrical release date.  I want to know when a movie first played in public.  I couldn't care less about when it was copyrighted.  Every major actor has pet projects that they work on that take years, even decades, to get made.  The ONLY relevant date is theatrical release.
John

"Extremism in the defense of Liberty is no vice!" Senator Barry Goldwater, 1964
Make America Great Again!
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorDarxon
Vescere bracis meis
Registered: March 14, 2007
Germany Posts: 742
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Since we're having this discussion, your statement that "nobody gives a damn about the copyright" is obviously and proven wrong.

While it may be true that YOU only care for the theatrical release date, other's obviously have a different take on this. Calling your preference the ONLY relevant POV is .... nah, I'm sure you got my point.

I have yet to see a discussion that only concentrates on weighing the pro and con of a suggested rule change or implementation of a new rule and stays away from belittleling other users and calling their points of view inferior.
Lutz
 Last edited: by Darxon
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantRifter
Reg. Jan 27, 2002
Registered: March 13, 2007
United States Posts: 2,694
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Quoting Darxon:
Quote:
Since we're having this discussion, your statement that "nobody gives a damn about the copyright" is obviously and proven wrong.

While it may be true that YOU only care for the theatrical release date, other's obviously have a different take on this. Calling your preference the ONLY relevant POV is .... nah, I'm sure you got my point.

I have yet to see a discussion that only concentrates on weighing the pro and con of a suggested rule change or implementation of a new rule and stays away from belittleing other users and calling their points of view inferior.


You obviously missed mine.  I said only some people here - meaning using Profiler - care about it.  The rest of the WORLD uses theatrical dates.  Take a look at ANY movie database, or ANY movie reference guide, and try to find even one that isn't organized around the theatrical release date.  It's simply ludicrous to think we are smarter than the entire world on this, especially that part of the world that MAKES the movies!
John

"Extremism in the defense of Liberty is no vice!" Senator Barry Goldwater, 1964
Make America Great Again!
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantRifter
Reg. Jan 27, 2002
Registered: March 13, 2007
United States Posts: 2,694
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Quoting Darxon:
Quote:
I have yet to see a discussion that only concentrates on weighing the pro and con of a suggested rule change or implementation of a new rule and stays away from belittleing other users and calling their points of view inferior.


I'm talking about basic logic and common sense.  You either have it or you don't.  If the shoe fits, wear it.
John

"Extremism in the defense of Liberty is no vice!" Senator Barry Goldwater, 1964
Make America Great Again!
DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantTouti
Registered: March 13, 2007
Canada Posts: 582
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Something just occured to me that I think we have to consider.  What year to they use when they submit films in festivals ?  It may sound like a stupid remark but if you think about it, everybody knows that Amadeus won 9 Acadamy awards in 1984, everybody considers it a 1984 movie.  Do we want our database to say it's 1983 ?

With all the post production work done on modern movies, they never come out the year they were shot is always at least a year later and often 2 or even 3.  Using copyright year would put almost every Oscar/Golden Globe/Canne winner of the last 15 years in a different year than the one they were rewarded.

I agreed with the copyright date at first but now I'm not so sure anymore, maybe we should stick to release date and simply ask Ken to rename the field.  As for the source of information, most DVDs if not all have the year printed somewhere on the back, there's also many online retailers that show that and there is the community here.  That should make it easy enough to find when necessary.

Copyright is not the way to go.
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DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorDarxon
Vescere bracis meis
Registered: March 14, 2007
Germany Posts: 742
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Quoting Rifter:
Quote:
Quoting Darxon:
Quote:
Since we're having this discussion, your statement that "nobody gives a damn about the copyright" is obviously and proven wrong.

While it may be true that YOU only care for the theatrical release date, other's obviously have a different take on this. Calling your preference the ONLY relevant POV is .... nah, I'm sure you got my point.

I have yet to see a discussion that only concentrates on weighing the pro and con of a suggested rule change or implementation of a new rule and stays away from belittleing other users and calling their points of view inferior.


You obviously missed mine.  I said only some people here - meaning using Profiler - care about it.  The rest of the WORLD uses theatrical dates.  Take a look at ANY movie database, or ANY movie reference guide, and try to find even one that isn't organized around the theatrical release date.  It's simply ludicrous to think we are smarter than the entire world on this, especially that part of the world that MAKES the movies!


With a smirk, I state that a lot of us usually pride themselves with that notion.
Lutz
 Last edited: by Darxon
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorDarxon
Vescere bracis meis
Registered: March 14, 2007
Germany Posts: 742
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Quoting Rifter:
Quote:
Quoting Darxon:
Quote:
I have yet to see a discussion that only concentrates on weighing the pro and con of a suggested rule change or implementation of a new rule and stays away from belittleing other users and calling their points of view inferior.


I'm talking about basic logic and common sense.  You either have it or you don't.  If the shoe fits, wear it.


Thank you for so elaborately proving my point. Darn, it must be really hard for you to think a sec or two before hitting the keys....
Lutz
DVD Profiler Unlimited Registrantnuoyaxin
prev. known as ya_shin
Registered: March 13, 2007
Taiwan, Province of China Posts: 3,398
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Quoting Touti:
Quote:
I agreed with the copyright date at first but now I'm not so sure anymore, maybe we should stick to release date and simply ask Ken to rename the field.  As for the source of information, most DVDs if not all have the year printed somewhere on the back, there's also many online retailers that show that and there is the community here.  That should make it easy enough to find when necessary.

You got me there... I always assumed, that the date/year on the back of the cover (usually preceeded by (C)), refers to the copyright date, and not the Theatrical Release.

Learn something new every day.
Achim [Ya-Shin//Nuo]
Registered: May 29, 2000 (at InterVocative)
DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantStar ContributorTelecine
Regd: January 22, 2001
Registered: March 14, 2007
Reputation: High Rating
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Copyright is an irrelevant piece of information to film lovers unless it lapses. Films then enter the public domain and have no copyright. No one anywhere in the world is interested in anything other than the release date and what year that is in relation to Awards (eg Academy Awards).

I for one am not interested in sticking a DVD in a player and finding this publicly available fact.

This represents a major departure from established processes and frankly it is too late to implement it. I can't believe that it is even being contemplated and in my view is just a navel gazing exercise being conducted a a few, divorced from real world realities.
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorWinston Smith
Don't be discommodious
Registered: March 13, 2007
United States Posts: 21,610
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Booooo, Hissssssss, public domain!!!!!!!!!!!!! Telecine, now go wash your mouth out.  

Skip
ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here

Billy Video
DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantStar ContributorTelecine
Regd: January 22, 2001
Registered: March 14, 2007
Reputation: High Rating
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Quoting skipnet50:
Quote:
Booooo, Hissssssss, public domain!!!!!!!!!!!!! Telecine, now go wash your mouth out.  

Skip


I am not a fan of films entering the public domain but it happens, even to decent films. The trouble is that no one wants to look after them once that happens and it is impossible to obtain a restored version of the film. More importantly though, we would not be able to profile them because they were no longer subject to copyright.   

The discussion does demonstrate though what a nonsense it is to try to profile films based on copyright which is a fleeting thing. What do we do for instance when a new copyright is granted 50 years after the film is released? Do we use that date because it is in the film credits on a DVD?
 Last edited: by Telecine
DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantTouti
Registered: March 13, 2007
Canada Posts: 582
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Quoting ya_shin:
Quote:
Quoting Touti:
Quote:
I agreed with the copyright date at first but now I'm not so sure anymore, maybe we should stick to release date and simply ask Ken to rename the field.  As for the source of information, most DVDs if not all have the year printed somewhere on the back, there's also many online retailers that show that and there is the community here.  That should make it easy enough to find when necessary.

You got me there... I always assumed, that the date/year on the back of the cover (usually preceeded by (C)), refers to the copyright date, and not the Theatrical Release.

Learn something new every day.


And I always assumed it's the release year but you got me thinking now.  I was not referring to the copyright date.  I noticed many times that there's a year printed on the back of a DVD, I used it a few times to compare with the packaging date to see if my copy was re-release when the cover didn't match the online db.

I'll check a few when I get home tonight, if it's the copyright date then it's no good.
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 Last edited: by Touti
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantRifter
Reg. Jan 27, 2002
Registered: March 13, 2007
United States Posts: 2,694
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Quoting Darxon:
Quote:
Quoting Rifter:
Quote:
Quoting Darxon:
Quote:
I have yet to see a discussion that only concentrates on weighing the pro and con of a suggested rule change or implementation of a new rule and stays away from belittleing other users and calling their points of view inferior.


I'm talking about basic logic and common sense.  You either have it or you don't.  If the shoe fits, wear it.


Thank you for so elaborately proving my point. Darn, it must be really hard for you to think a sec or two before hitting the keys....


Are you trying to be dense on purpose, or is it just an accident of birth?  I didn't refer to anybody specifically, did I?  If you think I was, then obviously you have a guilty conscience.  Facts can be troublesome things, can't they?
John

"Extremism in the defense of Liberty is no vice!" Senator Barry Goldwater, 1964
Make America Great Again!
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantRifter
Reg. Jan 27, 2002
Registered: March 13, 2007
United States Posts: 2,694
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Quoting Telecine:
Quote:
Copyright is an irrelevant piece of information to film lovers unless it lapses. Films then enter the public domain and have no copyright. No one anywhere in the world is interested in anything other than the release date and what year that is in relation to Awards (eg Academy Awards).

I for one am not interested in sticking a DVD in a player and finding this publicly available fact.

This represents a major departure from established processes and frankly it is too late to implement it. I can't believe that it is even being contemplated and in my view is just a navel gazing exercise being conducted a a few, divorced from real world realities.



Oooooh!  And they thought I was a hard ass!  Go get 'em, Telecine!     
John

"Extremism in the defense of Liberty is no vice!" Senator Barry Goldwater, 1964
Make America Great Again!
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