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DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantStar ContributorPantheon
Registered: March 14, 2007
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Quoting TheMadMartian:
Quote:
Quoting Prof. Kingsfield:
Quote:
Neill:

Did you read nothing that Ace has said the last couple of days, which have been indeed hate-filled very clearly and agenda driven.

While this may be true, the post you responded to wasn't.  I think the point Pantheon was making, and I am sure he will correct me if I am wrong, was that Ace's post was rather innocuous and did not warrant the response it got.

Not attacking, just offering a different perspective. 


That's exactly the point I was making.

I don't care if Ace took a crap in your soup before making the post I quoted...the post was NOT attacking you, Skip, and therefore should have been taken at face value.
Leave the baggage at the door then maybe others will follow.
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorCharlieM
Registered Sept 5 2005
Registered: May 20, 2007
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Quoting Prof. Kingsfield:
Quote:
I know their Rules north. The problem is interpretation of same, for example, your post is fraught with hostility which to me is a TOS violation. I am not interested in your interpretatiion or having it imposed upon me, I am also not interested in having mine imposed upon you. And if you understand anything about governance the more you try to tighten things down, the more loopholes you open up. I don't know if you are familiar with it, but there is a case where a young high school girl was taunted on the "net, not unlike here i fact, I am familiar with all the details, by a mother of an acquaintance pretending to be a friend and then tearing her to shreds.  The young girl was distraught by this and committed suicide. To me this woman clearly had committed manslaughter at the very least, if not out and out murder, but because of the way the law had been constructed and narrowed over the years, this woman will skate on ANY culpability in the death of this high school student. Now, of course, the law is being revised NOW, but that will get justice for this girl or here agrieved loved ones. We, as a group, are no better than that abusive adult woman.


That was Megan Myers.  Not far from where I live (20 Miles or so).  That case was an insult to justice, for which Megan will never get.  Sorry for Off topic, now back to our regularly scheduled show.
DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantStar ContributorPantheon
Registered: March 14, 2007
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Quoting CharlieM:
Quote:
I think before anybody says let bygones be bygones, everybody needs to HONESTLY answer this question.
(if any of you have an question about my sincerity, please read my past posts)

If I started a thread that directly called out Skip, on any topic relating to Invelos, how many of you would call me to the mat for it.

Now think about that before you answer.  I don't think that there are 5 of you that would.  I don't think half of you could answer this truthfully to yourself.

Charlie


If I'm honest it would depend on the issue and how it was being handled.

If your thread was within Invelos rules and you weren't calling him names or being abusive then I would let it lie...but, if you were being abusive I'd red arrow you in a flash.

For example: if you started a "Who wants Skip banned?" poll I'd red arrow it for harassment.

I know from  personal experience that Skip can be the most incredibly helpful person in the world...but just as easily the most hateful; but I will support him when I think he's in the right. But, I won't blindly support him just because most of the time I'm not in his line of sight when it comes to the nasty stuff.
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar Contributornorthbloke
Registered: March 15, 2007
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Quoting CharlieM:
Quote:
While in theory I would agree.  Since it isn't consistent, they are sending a mixed message.  I would actually contend, a better measure might be, what would you tell your children about their behavior if they acted the way you (in a general you) are about to?  (for those that have children)

Charlie


That's very true, but we don't have much of an option. Your idea of judging by your children's behaviour only works for those who are willing to self-moderate. To be honest, had these users been able to self-moderate like you suggest we would never had had this problem in the first place. 
But I agree, I would love to see a more consistent presence by the moderators here.
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantIronWaffle
Since April 26, 2001
Registered: March 13, 2007
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Quoting DoubleDownAgain:
Quote:
Agreed, I think maybe when people defend him others think they are defending him for everything, not that isolated incident.  Not that is an excuse, but a reason.  There is obviously bad blood on both sides and I've seen both sides read something into posts that wasn't there that ended up in causing even more ruckus.


Quoting Pantheon:
Quote:
If your thread was within Invelos rules and you weren't calling him names or being abusive then I would let it lie...but, if you were being abusive I'd red arrow you in a flash.

For example: if you started a "Who wants Skip banned?" poll I'd red arrow it for harassment.

I know from  personal experience that Skip can be the most incredibly helpful person in the world...but just as easily the most hateful; but I will support him when I think he's in the right. But, I won't blindly support him just because most of the time I'm not in his line of sight when it comes to the nasty stuff.


These largely reflect my opinion as well.
 Last edited: by IronWaffle
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorWinston Smith
Don't be discommodious
Registered: March 13, 2007
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Once again, very well said, Charlie.

As to the specifics of  this comment

"
Skip has a lot of useful information,that he wants to impart on people, although I think sometimes he needs to find a better method"

Quite true but I am at a loss in this area, Charlie. My purpose is to help, and sometimes to help point the way to rationality and teamwork. The response that i generally have gotten sounds lie=ke something a child says to a step-parent. "You're not the boss of me." "I don't have to listen to you", etc. Whether we are discussing the idea of using CLT results in the Notes  or whatever the controversy of the moment. To me it appears that there are some users who simply refuse to be a p[art of the overall team and will not do anything more than is required, regardless of the benefits of more clear commuincation. On eof biggest joys is actually very simple, I LOVE leaving a vote note like I did last night, where a user went beyond Ken's minimum and actually communicated with those viewing his Contribution very clearly and very completely in sy=uch a way that any one of us could look atn those notes 6 months from now when someone else tries to modify the title and we can clearly see what, why he did it and even what his CLT results at that point in time. This will prove very beneficial in the future a kudos to bbbbb for taking the extra effort.         I wish I saw more of this, instead of , I don't have to, Ken says I don't or whatever, Ken owns the database, true, but it is our project TOGETHER. The blind Yes votes drive me absolutely CRAZY. But that's another story.
ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
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Outta here

Billy Video
 Last edited: by Winston Smith
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorWinston Smith
Don't be discommodious
Registered: March 13, 2007
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Quoting Pantheon:
Quote:
Quoting CharlieM:
Quote:
I think before anybody says let bygones be bygones, everybody needs to HONESTLY answer this question.
(if any of you have an question about my sincerity, please read my past posts)

If I started a thread that directly called out Skip, on any topic relating to Invelos, how many of you would call me to the mat for it.

Now think about that before you answer.  I don't think that there are 5 of you that would.  I don't think half of you could answer this truthfully to yourself.

Charlie


If I'm honest it would depend on the issue and how it was being handled.

If your thread was within Invelos rules and you weren't calling him names or being abusive then I would let it lie...but, if you were being abusive I'd red arrow you in a flash.

For example: if you started a "Who wants Skip banned?" poll I'd red arrow it for harassment.

I know from  personal experience that Skip can be the most incredibly helpful person in the world...but just as easily the most hateful; but I will support him when I think he's in the right. But, I won't blindly support him just because most of the time I'm not in his line of sight when it comes to the nasty stuff.

Neill:

I can ask of nothing more, of you or anyone else. The only point I would make is that try to understand that there is way too much baggage. The constant rugby scrums have admittedly taken their toll, Ace has not accepted my offer for example, but in that lost poll he made many hateful, ideological and agenda-driven, I appreciate his honesty, but the level of venom made me sick to my stomach. Now if Ace wants to accept my offer, and that is his choice, then i will start from that point. But Neill, I said I will not again try to unilaterally disarm, I have tried that before and wound up getting badly bruised for my effort, so without Ace saying he wants to start again and accepts my offer, then I have to view his behavior in toto. It' sup to him or any other user.
ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here

Billy Video
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorWinston Smith
Don't be discommodious
Registered: March 13, 2007
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Quoting northbloke:
Quote:
Quoting CharlieM:
Quote:
While in theory I would agree.  Since it isn't consistent, they are sending a mixed message.  I would actually contend, a better measure might be, what would you tell your children about their behavior if they acted the way you (in a general you) are about to?  (for those that have children)

Charlie


That's very true, but we don't have much of an option. Your idea of judging by your children's behaviour only works for those who are willing to self-moderate. To be honest, had these users been able to self-moderate like you suggest we would never had had this problem in the first place. 
But I agree, I would love to see a more consistent presence by the moderators here.

Hmmm fascinating concept, north, one I have mentioned several times as being the best possible answer. But you seem to be admitting that you are incapable of it. That would explain a lot. But self-moderation remqains the best answer and will free up Ken and Gerri to give us better product, instead of having to wet nurse a pack of unruly children, they have real ones to deal with.      

That said I will ask you very directly. Are you willing to extend your hand to me as I have to you? If the answer is no then i will allow the Community to make its own judgement. I welcome the opportunity.
ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here

Billy Video
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorDoubleDownAgain
I see better with 'em on
Registered: March 13, 2007
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Quoting Prof. Kingsfield:
Quote:
The constant rugby scrums have admittedly taken their toll, Ace has not accepted my offer for example, but in that lost poll he made many hateful, ideological and agenda-driven, I appreciate his honesty, but the level of venom made me sick to my stomach. Now if Ace wants to accept my offer, and that is his choice, then i will start from that point.


I guess it's a matter of perspective because on a consistent basis you list things about others that I could use to describe yourself.  You have stated in the past that you don't think you have done much wrong & won't apologize for it.  but you've requested others to do just that, something that you aren't willing to do yourself.

If you truly want things to improve I think you need to realize why so many people get upset with you, and learn to change.  Maybe it's just a case that people interpret your message incorrectly, and take it differently than what you intended.
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DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar Contributornorthbloke
Registered: March 15, 2007
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Quoting Prof. Kingsfield:
Quote:
Hmmm fascinating concept, north, one I have mentioned several times as being the best possible answer. But you seem to be admitting that you are incapable of it.

If you get that impression then read it again.
Quote:
That said I will ask you very directly. Are you willing to extend your hand to me as I have to you? If the answer is no then i will allow the Community to make its own judgement. I welcome the opportunity.

After what you've called me in the past, I will never accept your "hand" or however you want to colour it. But nor do you get to spin it to make it like I'm the bad guy. I will take each of your posts as they come and judge them accordingly, without any baggage.
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorWinston Smith
Don't be discommodious
Registered: March 13, 2007
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Quoting DoubleDownAgain:
Quote:
Quoting Prof. Kingsfield:
Quote:
The constant rugby scrums have admittedly taken their toll, Ace has not accepted my offer for example, but in that lost poll he made many hateful, ideological and agenda-driven, I appreciate his honesty, but the level of venom made me sick to my stomach. Now if Ace wants to accept my offer, and that is his choice, then i will start from that point.


I guess it's a matter of perspective because on a consistent basis you list things about others that I could use to describe yourself.  You have stated in the past that you don't think you have done much wrong & won't apologize for it.  but you've requested others to do just that, something that you aren't willing to do yourself.

If you truly want things to improve I think you need to realize why so many people get upset with you, and learn to change.  Maybe it's just a case that people interpret your message incorrectly, and take it differently than what you intended.

DoubleDown:

Let me put this as succinctly as I can, I have tried, it's NOT going to happen when I constantly set upon and having to bite, scratch and claw my way from the bottom of a rugby scrum.

I have made the best offer i can , yet in your case, you continue to be hyper-critical and confrontational, point blank that's going NOWHERE here. If you would like to accept my offer, fine, great. wonderful, then maybe we can begin working on some things, otherwise, frankly i can't hear you. You have the ball do with it what you will, but as I have said those who refuse my hand in friendshiop and peace...well then the onus falls off of me and right into their lap, including yours DoubleDown. Are you man enough to accept my offer, or do you really just want to continue sniping and nack-biting. the choice is YOURS.
ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
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Outta here

Billy Video
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorWinston Smith
Don't be discommodious
Registered: March 13, 2007
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Quoting northbloke:
Quote:
Quoting Prof. Kingsfield:
Quote:
Hmmm fascinating concept, north, one I have mentioned several times as being the best possible answer. But you seem to be admitting that you are incapable of it.

If you get that impression then read it again.
Quote:
That said I will ask you very directly. Are you willing to extend your hand to me as I have to you? If the answer is no then i will allow the Community to make its own judgement. I welcome the opportunity.

After what you've called me in the past, I will never accept your "hand" or however you want to colour it. But nor do you get to spin it to make it like I'm the bad guy. I will take each of your posts as they come and judge them accordingly, without any baggage.

Fine, you have sealed my opinion of you and your hateful statements and i can only hope that Ken, Geri and others will also take this into account when weighing the veracity and credibility or lack thereof of your comments.

Kindly do the community a favor and stay way from thread I post on, you hate filled attitude will only spark conflict and that is undesired by me.

A wise proverb you should take to heart, north. If you can say nothing nice, say nothing at all.

I tried people, my apologies to all for failing.
ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here

Billy Video
 Last edited: by Winston Smith
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar Contributornorthbloke
Registered: March 15, 2007
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For anyone else who also may have missed it.

Quoting northbloke:
Quote:
I will take each of your posts as they come and judge them accordingly, without any baggage.


For Skip, I suggest you start taking your own advice.

Quoting Prof. Kingsfield:
Quote:
If you can say nothing nice, say nothing at all.
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorDoubleDownAgain
I see better with 'em on
Registered: March 13, 2007
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Quoting Prof. Kingsfield:
Quote:
DoubleDown:

Let me put this as succinctly as I can, I have tried, it's NOT going to happen when I constantly set upon and having to bite, scratch and claw my way from the bottom of a rugby scrum.

And this will probably continue to happen until you decide to change your ways.  It is your choice to post what you do, even if you are unfairly attacked.  You are still responsible for your own actions.  The pessimist in me thinks you know this won't work but now you can point back to a handful of posts and say, 'See guys?  I tried!!! But it's them that won't change!!'.  Instead of trying to get everyone to agree to take your olive branch why don't you not react as you have for awhile and show everyone you have changed?

Quoting Prof. Kingsfield:
Quote:
A wise proverb you should take to heart, north. If you can say nothing nice, say nothing at all.

I tried people, my apologies to all for failing.


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 Last edited: by DoubleDownAgain
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorWinston Smith
Don't be discommodious
Registered: March 13, 2007
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DoubleDown:

I never once came after you that I know of. Not a single yet for the last several weeks you have decidedto join in the game a climb on my back. I have made a suggestion to you and told in as many ways as I know how tio tell you that your posts are confrontational and if you have a goal, they are guaranted NOT to achieve it. I don't know who you are, i don't know who you think you are, I am becoming less concerned with every post you make. It is your choice you climbed on my back you can choose to climb off it. I don't make threats, but if you choose to remain upon my back as you have then do not expect any sort of cooperation from me, because you won't get it. In my book you have crossed over into just being insulting, repetitively and constantly so...I know where you stand and you will accorded whatever kindness I can muster, but you will also not be given any quarter. I have had it up to here, I have tried to be patient with you, but no more. Sorry
ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
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Billy Video
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantMark Harrison
I like IMDB
Registered: March 13, 2007
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Quoting Prof. Kingsfield:
Quote:
Therein lies a piece of the problem. Whose definition...


I expect Invelos to define the rules of behavior, the consequences for not following those rules and to be responsible for enforcing those rules.

Then it's up to us to decide if those rules create an atmosphere where we feel comfortable participating.  Many don't feel the current rules / consequences create an atmosphere where they feel comfortable participating.  Some have chosen to leave because of that.  Others are speaking up now.  Others will choose one of those options when we do this again 6 months from now or when we do it again a year from now or when we do it again 18 months from now just as other old timers have made those decisions when we did this 6 months ago and a year ago and 18 months ago and so on.

I've never wanted to set the rules myself.  Nor have I ever wanted to define the consequences for breaking the rules.  I voted yes in the other thread, but that was more to show my support for something being done than to define what needs to be done.  And I believe I said as much in that thread.

I hope that answers your question adequately. 
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