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Proud PS3 owner in Europe?
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DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantAscended_Saiyan
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Registered: March 13, 2007
Posts: 1,127
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Quoting cmaeditor:
Quote:
NO CONSUMER TV on the market today will display a true 1080p/24 frame signal. Every CONSUMER TV out there takes the 24p signal and adds pulldown to get a 60p it. It's a fact, albeit one that the HD gurus don't mention. There is no way to display a 24p image on any HD monitor and not have a strobing image being displayed. Our eyes see faster than that and the strobing is hard to look at and will give you a headache. I have been on Shoots using a Panavision Genesis HD camera that shoots 24p, and the only monitors that displayed the true 24p signal were expensive PROFESSIONAL STUDIO monitors. and there was a noticeable strobing of the image that you could see.

I don't know where you get your information from, but you are wrong.  Here is a list of products that can display a 1080p/24 signal.

1080P Displays

Front Projectors

1. Sony SXRD 1080P Front Projector VPL-VW50 (Projection Picture Size: 40" to 300" measured diagonally) (96Hz)
2 .JVC DLA-HD1 Front Projector (96Hz refresh rate for 1080P/24) 60HZ sources are refreshed at 120HZ
3. DreamVision (model Dreambee) (48Hz)
4.Optoma HD81 Single Chip DLP front projector (48 Hz)
5. PANASONIC PT-AE1000U LCD Front projector
6. Mitsubishi HC5000 1080P LCD Front Projector (Projection Picture Size: 50" to 300" measured diagonally) (48Hz)
7.. Project design model three 1080P DLP Front Project (Page 94 March 2007 Perfect Vision magazine) 1080P/24 support $24,495, lamp replacement $599 every 2000-4000 hours. Screen size 30”-955”.

Rear Projectors

1. Sony KDF-50E3000 LCD Rear Projector (scheduled release summer 2007)
2. Sony KDF-46E3000 LCD Rear Projector (scheduled release summer 2007)
3. NuVision 52LEDLP (No Color Wheel, no rainbows,3 LEDS, power 100-240V 50/60HZ ) 72HZ

Plasma and LCD


1. Sony 70” LCD 1080P KDL-70XBR3 (scheduled release summer 2007) (120Hz) (xvYCC)
2. Pioneer PRO-FHD1 1080P 50” Plasma (72Hz)
3. Pioneer PDP-5010FD 1080P 50 " Plasma (scheduled release September 2007)
4. Pioneer PDP-6010FD 1080P 60" Plasma (scheduled release September 2007)
5. Pioneer PRO-110FD 1080P 50" Plasma (scheduled release September 2007)
6. Pioneer PRO-150FD 1080P 60" Plasma (scheduled release September 2007)

Plus, a lot of older Pioneer Elite HDTV do accept 1080i/24Hz signal (which the PS3 can output) and use 3:3 pulldown, which allows a judder free 24fps signal to be increased to a very smooth 72HZ judder free image (which is the purpose of not using 3:2 pulldown).

Look it up.
To err is human...
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473 Blu-ray Titles
DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantStar Contributorcmaeditor
Registered: April 14, 2007
United States Posts: 433
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Quoting Ascended_Saiyan:
Quote:
Quoting cmaeditor:
Quote:
NO CONSUMER TV on the market today will display a true 1080p/24 frame signal. Every CONSUMER TV out there takes the 24p signal and adds pulldown to get a 60p it. It's a fact, albeit one that the HD gurus don't mention. There is no way to display a 24p image on any HD monitor and not have a strobing image being displayed. Our eyes see faster than that and the strobing is hard to look at and will give you a headache. I have been on Shoots using a Panavision Genesis HD camera that shoots 24p, and the only monitors that displayed the true 24p signal were expensive PROFESSIONAL STUDIO monitors. and there was a noticeable strobing of the image that you could see.

I don't know where you get your information from, but you are wrong.  Here is a list of products that can display a 1080p/24 signal.

LIST SNIPPED BY cmaeditor

Plus, a lot of older Pioneer Elite HDTV do accept 1080i/24Hz signal (which the PS3 can output) and use 3:3 pulldown, which allows a judder free 24fps signal to be increased to a very smooth 72HZ judder free image (which is the purpose of not using 3:2 pulldown).

Look it up.


Where I get my info? I work in the Entertainment industry as an editor. Everyone of those TVs you list may accept a 24p signal, but they do not display it as 24 frames. They all process the signal to some higher frame rate to display it smoothly to our eyes, be it 96p, 72p, 60p, 48p or even 60i. 48p has a slight flicker to it and your frame rate has to get around 60 on a progressive monitor to not be able to perceive a flicker. That is the TRUTH. Talk to any person who works in the broadcast and/or entertainment industry and you will hear the same thing.
Chris
 Last edited: by cmaeditor
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantBattling Butler
Registered: March 13, 2007
Posts: 811
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I don't know where you get your information from, but you are wrong."


Once again, Ascended's talking out of his A_S
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantAscended_Saiyan
A Blu-ray crack fiend
Registered: March 13, 2007
Posts: 1,127
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Quoting cmaeditor:
Quote:
Quoting Ascended_Saiyan:
Quote:
Quoting cmaeditor:
Quote:
NO CONSUMER TV on the market today will display a true 1080p/24 frame signal. Every CONSUMER TV out there takes the 24p signal and adds pulldown to get a 60p it. It's a fact, albeit one that the HD gurus don't mention. There is no way to display a 24p image on any HD monitor and not have a strobing image being displayed. Our eyes see faster than that and the strobing is hard to look at and will give you a headache. I have been on Shoots using a Panavision Genesis HD camera that shoots 24p, and the only monitors that displayed the true 24p signal were expensive PROFESSIONAL STUDIO monitors. and there was a noticeable strobing of the image that you could see.

I don't know where you get your information from, but you are wrong.  Here is a list of products that can display a 1080p/24 signal.

LIST SNIPPED BY cmaeditor

Plus, a lot of older Pioneer Elite HDTV do accept 1080i/24Hz signal (which the PS3 can output) and use 3:3 pulldown, which allows a judder free 24fps signal to be increased to a very smooth 72HZ judder free image (which is the purpose of not using 3:2 pulldown).

Look it up.


Where I get my info? I work in the Entertainment industry as an editor. Everyone of those TVs you list may accept a 24p signal, but they do not display it as 24 frames. They all process the signal to some higher frame rate to display it smoothly to our eyes, be it 96p, 72p, 60p, 48p or even 60i. 48p has a slight flicker to it and your frame rate has to get around 60 on a progressive monitor to not be able to perceive a flicker. That is the TRUTH. Talk to any person who works in the broadcast and/or entertainment industry and you will hear the same thing.

It would make no sense for you to make a statement like that about 24fps.  Anyone in the industry should automatically know the benefits of a 24fps signal.  That would be the only reason to bring up 60Hz in the first place.

The purpose of a 24Hz signal is for judder free images when watching most film presentations and my PS3 can output at 1080p/24Hz (which I can take full advantage of).  So, nice try.
To err is human...
-----------
473 Blu-ray Titles
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantAscended_Saiyan
A Blu-ray crack fiend
Registered: March 13, 2007
Posts: 1,127
Posted:
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Quoting Battling Butler:
Quote:
I don't know where you get your information from, but you are wrong."


Once again, Ascended's talking out of his A_S

You know not of what you speak.  Otherwise, you would not have made that statement.
To err is human...
-----------
473 Blu-ray Titles
DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantStar Contributorcmaeditor
Registered: April 14, 2007
United States Posts: 433
Posted:
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Quoting Ascended_Saiyan:
Quote:
Quoting cmaeditor:
Quote:
Quoting Ascended_Saiyan:
Quote:
Quoting cmaeditor:
Quote:
NO CONSUMER TV on the market today will display a true 1080p/24 frame signal. Every CONSUMER TV out there takes the 24p signal and adds pulldown to get a 60p it. It's a fact, albeit one that the HD gurus don't mention. There is no way to display a 24p image on any HD monitor and not have a strobing image being displayed. Our eyes see faster than that and the strobing is hard to look at and will give you a headache. I have been on Shoots using a Panavision Genesis HD camera that shoots 24p, and the only monitors that displayed the true 24p signal were expensive PROFESSIONAL STUDIO monitors. and there was a noticeable strobing of the image that you could see.

I don't know where you get your information from, but you are wrong.  Here is a list of products that can display a 1080p/24 signal.

LIST SNIPPED BY cmaeditor

Plus, a lot of older Pioneer Elite HDTV do accept 1080i/24Hz signal (which the PS3 can output) and use 3:3 pulldown, which allows a judder free 24fps signal to be increased to a very smooth 72HZ judder free image (which is the purpose of not using 3:2 pulldown).

Look it up.


Where I get my info? I work in the Entertainment industry as an editor. Everyone of those TVs you list may accept a 24p signal, but they do not display it as 24 frames. They all process the signal to some higher frame rate to display it smoothly to our eyes, be it 96p, 72p, 60p, 48p or even 60i. 48p has a slight flicker to it and your frame rate has to get around 60 on a progressive monitor to not be able to perceive a flicker. That is the TRUTH. Talk to any person who works in the broadcast and/or entertainment industry and you will hear the same thing.

It would make no sense for you to make a statement like that about 24fps.  Anyone in the industry should automatically know the benefits of a 24fps signal.  That would be the only reason to bring up 60Hz in the first place.

The purpose of a 24Hz signal is for judder free images when watching most film presentations and my PS3 can output at 1080p/24Hz (which I can take full advantage of).  So, nice try.


PLEASE DO NOT CONFUSED THE FRAME RATE WITH THE SIGNAL HERTZ, THEY ARE NOT THE SAME THING. fps does not equal Hz

Apparently you know nothing about video signals at all. The reason we have 30i (actually 29.97 frame rate) SDTV signals is that our electrical system cycles at 60Hz (actually 59.94Hz, but we round up) an SD image is made up of 60 interlaced fields which constitute half of a full frame each, therefore the refresh rate of a SDTV is 60hz. To convert material whose native frame rate is 24fps to 30i 3:2 pulldown is introduced. In an interlaced signal that creates frames every so often that are composed of 2 fields from different 24fps frames. In a progressive signal 3:2 pulldown is used as well, but instead of fields, full frames are duplicated. The reason 24fps material isn't shown at 24fps on any TV (HD or SD) is that our eyes would perceive a flicker and extended viewing of that would give us a headache. Movies in the theatre are projected at 24fps, but the shutter of the projector is running at 48 or 72fps, we don't notice it, but what we are actually seeing on the screen is a 24fps image refreshed 48 or 72 times a second.

Yes your PS3 may send out a 24fps signal, but here is what is happening in each of your TVs you listed that you own.

1080p/ 60Hz ---- The 24fps signal is processed and displayed as a 60fps Progressive image.
480p/ 60Hz  ---- Since this display is nothing more than a SDTV that can display a progrssive signal you are seeing a 30p signal
1080/ 96Hz --- The 24fps material is processed and displayed most likely (unless i know the make and model #, i can only guess) either as a 60p image or a 96p (each frame of the 24fps material duplicated 4 times 24x4=96)
Chris
 Last edited: by cmaeditor
DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantStar Contributorcmaeditor
Registered: April 14, 2007
United States Posts: 433
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Error in correcting my previous post
Chris
 Last edited: by cmaeditor
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantAscended_Saiyan
A Blu-ray crack fiend
Registered: March 13, 2007
Posts: 1,127
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Quoting cmaeditor:
Quote:
PLEASE DO NOT CONFUSED THE FRAME RATE WITH THE SIGNAL HERTZ, THEY ARE NOT THE SAME THING. fps does not equal Hz

Apparently you know nothing about video signals at all. The reason we have 30i (actually 29.97 frame rate) SDTV signals is that our electrical system cycles at 60Hz (actually 59.94Hz, but we round up) an SD image is made up of 60 interlaced fields which constitute half of a full frame each, therefore the refresh rate of a SDTV is 60hz. To convert material whose native frame rate is 24fps to 30i 3:2 pulldown is introduced. In an interlaced signal that creates frames every so often that are composed of 2 fields from different 24fps frames. In a progressive signal 3:2 pulldown is used as well, but instead of fields, full frames are duplicated. The reason 24fps material isn't shown at 24fps on any TV (HD or SD) is that our eyes would perceive a flicker and extended viewing of that would give us a headache. Movies in the theatre are projected at 24fps, but the shutter of the projector is running at 48fps, we don't notice it, but what we are actually seeing on the screen is a 24fps image refreshed 48 times a second.

Yes your PS3 may send out a 24fps signal, but here is what is happening in each of your TVs you listed that you own.

1080p/ 60Hz ---- The 24fps signal is processed and displayed as a 60fps Progressive image.
480p/ 60Hz  ---- Since this display is nothing more than a SDTV that can display a progrssive signal you are seeing a 30p signal
1080/ 96Hz --- The 24fps material is processed and displayed most likely (unless i know the make and model #, i can only guess) either as a 60p image or a 96p (each frame of the 24fps material duplicated 4 times 24x4=96)

I generally know what my TVs do with any signal at this level of discussion.

Let's put it this way...
60Hz = 60fps capability  (Hertz is a cycle...frames per second is how many frames a TV can display in a 1 second cycle)

72Hz = 72fps capability
96Hz = 96fps capability
120Hz = 120fps capability

Quote:
Every CONSUMER TV out there takes the 24p signal and adds pulldown to get a 60p it. It's a fact, albeit one that the HD gurus don't mention.

That is completely false on a very basic level.  I have provided evidence supporting that in my previous link.  I can provide more.  I would love for you to provide a recent link or two supporting your statement.  You even contradicted that statement above with the following part of your last post.
Quote:
or a 96p (each frame of the 24fps material duplicated 4 times 24x4=96)


At this point, it seems you are just trying to "save face".  It's no big deal.  We all make mistakes sometimes.  So, unless you have some links to back up at least your statement above, I will wait for your retraction post.
To err is human...
-----------
473 Blu-ray Titles
DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantStar Contributorcmaeditor
Registered: April 14, 2007
United States Posts: 433
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Quoting Ascended_Saiyan:
Quote:
Quoting cmaeditor:
Quote:
PLEASE DO NOT CONFUSED THE FRAME RATE WITH THE SIGNAL HERTZ, THEY ARE NOT THE SAME THING. fps does not equal Hz

Apparently you know nothing about video signals at all. The reason we have 30i (actually 29.97 frame rate) SDTV signals is that our electrical system cycles at 60Hz (actually 59.94Hz, but we round up) an SD image is made up of 60 interlaced fields which constitute half of a full frame each, therefore the refresh rate of a SDTV is 60hz. To convert material whose native frame rate is 24fps to 30i 3:2 pulldown is introduced. In an interlaced signal that creates frames every so often that are composed of 2 fields from different 24fps frames. In a progressive signal 3:2 pulldown is used as well, but instead of fields, full frames are duplicated. The reason 24fps material isn't shown at 24fps on any TV (HD or SD) is that our eyes would perceive a flicker and extended viewing of that would give us a headache. Movies in the theatre are projected at 24fps, but the shutter of the projector is running at 48fps, we don't notice it, but what we are actually seeing on the screen is a 24fps image refreshed 48 times a second.

Yes your PS3 may send out a 24fps signal, but here is what is happening in each of your TVs you listed that you own.

1080p/ 60Hz ---- The 24fps signal is processed and displayed as a 60fps Progressive image.
480p/ 60Hz  ---- Since this display is nothing more than a SDTV that can display a progrssive signal you are seeing a 30p signal
1080/ 96Hz --- The 24fps material is processed and displayed most likely (unless i know the make and model #, i can only guess) either as a 60p image or a 96p (each frame of the 24fps material duplicated 4 times 24x4=96)

I generally know what my TVs do with any signal at this level of discussion.

Let's put it this way...
60Hz = 60fps capability  (Hertz is a cycle...frames per second is how many frames a TV can display in a 1 second cycle)

72Hz = 72fps capability
96Hz = 96fps capability
120Hz = 120fps capability

Quote:
Every CONSUMER TV out there takes the 24p signal and adds pulldown to get a 60p it. It's a fact, albeit one that the HD gurus don't mention.

That is completely false on a very basic level.  I have provided evidence supporting that in my previous link.  I can provide more.  I would love for you to provide a recent link or two supporting your statement.  You even contradicted that statement above with the following part of your last post.
Quote:
or a 96p (each frame of the 24fps material duplicated 4 times 24x4=96)


At this point, it seems you are just trying to "save face".  It's no big deal.  We all make mistakes sometimes.  So, unless you have some links to back up at least your statement above, I will wait for your retraction post.


I am not trying to save face. You were the one who claimed that you were watching a TRUE 24fps image, not an image that has had frames duplicated to match the refresh rate of your display. There is no TV on the CONSUMER MARKET today that will display 24fps as 24fps. They all process the signal using either 3:2 pulldown, for a 60p image or some multiple of 24 to match the internal refresh rate of the display.
Chris
DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantStar Contributorminimoke
Registered: March 13, 2007
Posts: 38
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Hey guys, hold your horses,

Can't you just be happy with what you have?

I'm just happy with my PS3, and I don't care if it's 500 or 550 Mhz.

I like my Blu-ray's... and High Definition gaming.. that's just a free gadget I got with my PS3, just as all the rest mentioned in this tread.

And indeed, to bad I did not get 7 free discs with it and $ 100 rebate. but that's the problem when buying something that is wanted and sold.

And over here in Euroland, a lot of people were willing to pay more, and we even had to wait a few more months. But I think it was worth it.
http://bluray.ligfietsers.be/phpdvdprofiler/index.php
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantAscended_Saiyan
A Blu-ray crack fiend
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Thanks for the post, minimoke.  You are absolutely correct.

Now, for those of you wanting the PS3's architecture explained...

I think I have finally come across an explanation of the TRUE abilities of the PS3 and why it is so much better than the Xbox 360.  Here's a hint...It not really about the graphics card.  The difference in the graphics cards appears to be minimal at best.

[URL="http://www.n4g.com/dev/News-39229.aspx"]PS3 rendering architecture explained[/URL]...

Quote:
"The PS3 rendering architecture is designed to be used like this:

The PPE functions as a controller for the entire system.

The SPEs function as the heavy lifters for game logic, physics, and dynamic vertex work. They also are used for some pixel work.

The RSX functions as the main pixel painter, but it is also used for static geometry.

A PS3 engine will start off with the PPE spawning off tasks to the SPEs and acting as the central control point for the engine. Static geometry is put onto the RSX. PPEs start cranking through tasks in parallel, usually setup to double buffer the data they operate on. A SPE will have its code uploaded, then it starts a DMA fetch for its initial data into to one half its local memory, and then it starts ping ponging back and forth: work through one half the local memory while the second half is being DMAed in, then swap. Ideally you have it setup so that you are effectively hiding almost all of your data loading latencies with the double buffer setup and chaining SPEs together where you do animation, deformation, physics, transformation, lighting all going on in parallel.

The heavy vertex work being done, that data is then sent off to the RSX to be rasterized along with the resident static vertex data. So in effect the PS3's Cell RSX combo is one giant unified rendering system. Depending on the nature of your game, your division of labor between the RSX and Cell will be different. It is entirely possible to do all vertex work on Cell or none. And the same for pixel painting.

What the design of the PS3's rendering architecture brings to developers is the unification of your physics, collision, dynamics, and geometry. On systems like desktop pcs or the 360 you have a division between your geometric data and collision/physics data with each of them sitting in GPU and CPU space respectively. The latest Factor 5 interview talks in general about this design of the PS3 and the Lair engine.

The RSX does exactly what it was designed to do, have the pixel painting power to handle 1080p output. The extra vertex power is a nice addition. The RSX in isolation is not very interesting to talk about. Or is a comparison to standard desktop graphics cards or the Xenos."
To err is human...
-----------
473 Blu-ray Titles
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantAscended_Saiyan
A Blu-ray crack fiend
Registered: March 13, 2007
Posts: 1,127
Posted:
PM this userView this user's DVD collectionDirect link to this postReply with quote
Quoting Ascended_Saiyan:
Quote:
Thanks for the post, minimoke.  You are absolutely correct.

Now, for those of you wanting the PS3's architecture explained...

I think I have finally come across an explanation of the TRUE abilities of the PS3 and why it is so much better than the Xbox 360.  Here's a hint...It not really about the graphics card.  The difference in the graphics cards appears to be minimal at best.

PS3 rendering architecture explained...

Quote:
"The PS3 rendering architecture is designed to be used like this:

The PPE functions as a controller for the entire system.

The SPEs function as the heavy lifters for game logic, physics, and dynamic vertex work. They also are used for some pixel work.

The RSX functions as the main pixel painter, but it is also used for static geometry.

A PS3 engine will start off with the PPE spawning off tasks to the SPEs and acting as the central control point for the engine. Static geometry is put onto the RSX. PPEs start cranking through tasks in parallel, usually setup to double buffer the data they operate on. A SPE will have its code uploaded, then it starts a DMA fetch for its initial data into to one half its local memory, and then it starts ping ponging back and forth: work through one half the local memory while the second half is being DMAed in, then swap. Ideally you have it setup so that you are effectively hiding almost all of your data loading latencies with the double buffer setup and chaining SPEs together where you do animation, deformation, physics, transformation, lighting all going on in parallel.

The heavy vertex work being done, that data is then sent off to the RSX to be rasterized along with the resident static vertex data. So in effect the PS3's Cell RSX combo is one giant unified rendering system. Depending on the nature of your game, your division of labor between the RSX and Cell will be different. It is entirely possible to do all vertex work on Cell or none. And the same for pixel painting.

What the design of the PS3's rendering architecture brings to developers is the unification of your physics, collision, dynamics, and geometry. On systems like desktop pcs or the 360 you have a division between your geometric data and collision/physics data with each of them sitting in GPU and CPU space respectively. The latest Factor 5 interview talks in general about this design of the PS3 and the Lair engine.

The RSX does exactly what it was designed to do, have the pixel painting power to handle 1080p output. The extra vertex power is a nice addition. The RSX in isolation is not very interesting to talk about. Or is a comparison to standard desktop graphics cards or the Xenos."
To err is human...
-----------
473 Blu-ray Titles
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