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"On Set" Crew Credits, Do We Enter Them?
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DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorMerrik
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Quoting AiAustria:
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An art director can be a profession or a function. From my point of view it is not relevant what profession a person is able to fullfill but what function was achieved for the movie in question. If there is one person credited as art director, all others are helping hands to him, maybe very skilled ones, but not the one and only person in charge. For me it would be enough to enter the head and leave out all others.

As in many other cases, I think less is more...


If this was the case though, then we would just credit Supervising Art Director, the one in charge, and leave out all other Art Directors... and we don't. We can only go by the onscreen credit, so what profession a person is or what function was achieved for the movie in question is something that unless we worked on the set, we'll never know.

Gotta go by the credit, not what you want to infer from the credit. Right?
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DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorMerrik
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Quoting scotthm:
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Quoting Merrik:
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Anyone who voted either way want to weigh in with why you feel this way?

I haven't voted, but you've already suggested a good argument for not including them:

Quoting Merrik:
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I can only speak for this specific case at the moment as even though I've seen quite a few On Set xxxxxxxx credits, since they're not tracked that way in the system (or not in the profiles at all), I wouldn't exactly know which profiles to go back into to look at those specific credits.


---------------


Well, but then again, we don't track makeup credits with "Sandra Bullock's Makeup Artist" either though right? It's just listed as Makeup. Supervising Art Director isn't tracked in our locals as a Supervising Art Director, just Art Director.

I wish I had been keeping track  I would know how many of these credits I've been running into lately. I'd take a guesstimate that in the last few weeks while editing/auditing a few dozen profiles I've run into them maybe 10-12 times? Give or take a few. These credits seem to be getting a little more prevalent.

You absolutely make a good point though! Nobody seems to be tracking them even though some folks are voting that they should be entered and we wouldn't be able to track them exactly as credited (and it is noted in the crew chart that Cast Makeup Artists are to be included etc.)

I dunno.

Appreciate the thoughts and opinion on it! 
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 Last edited: by Merrik
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorMerrik
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Apologies if I seem like I'm shooting anything down with my replies... just throwing out thoughts that come from a different angle... not meaning to try to invalidate in someway, anyone's opinions. And just wanted to say thanks to everyone who replied! 
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DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantStar ContributorTheMadMartian
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Quoting mreeder50:
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I voted to allow them because an Art Director is an Art Director whether they have a prefix or not.

I agree with this.  For me, the prefix does not detract from the credit, it just adds additional information.
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DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantStar ContributorAiAustria
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Quoting TheMadMartian:
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Quoting mreeder50:
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I voted to allow them because an Art Director is an Art Director whether they have a prefix or not.

I agree with this.  For me, the prefix does not detract from the credit, it just adds additional information.

This a little bit unspecific: Assistant Director, Line Producer, 2nd Unit Director, Associate Producer, Co Producer, Still Photographer, Assistant Art Director, Visual Effects Editor, Foley Mixer ...
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 Last edited: by AiAustria
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorMerrik
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Quoting AiAustria:
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Quoting TheMadMartian:
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Quoting mreeder50:
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I voted to allow them because an Art Director is an Art Director whether they have a prefix or not.

I agree with this.  For me, the prefix does not detract from the credit, it just adds additional information.

This a little bit unspecific: Assistant Director, Line Producer, 2nd Unit Director, Associate Producer, Co Producer, Still Photographer, Assistant Art Director, Visual Effects Editor, Foley Mixer ...


No.

Don't try to confuse the issue.

If it was an Assistant Art Director, or a 2nd Unit Art Director, or an Associate Art Director, we wouldn't be having the conversation. Because those are obviously not the same thing as the Art Director and I wouldn't have started the topic.

Assistant Art Director =/= Art Director

If the prefix of On Set were put in front of Assistant Art Director, you'd have more of a valid point, but that's not what we're discussing.

Do the words "On Set" disqualify an Art Director (NOT an Assistant Art Director, not an Associate Art Director, not a 2nd Unit Art Director, but an ART DIRECTOR) from getting a credit in the system?

Leave the rest of the stuff that's only in there to confuse the situation out of it and look at THAT question.

The person is an Art Director. That is their credit. That is their job (according to their credit). They do their job "On Set" instead of where every other Art Director is doing their job. Does that mean they shouldn't get a credit?
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 Last edited: by Merrik
DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantStar ContributorAiAustria
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Sorry, did not mean to confuse, just wanted to point out, that a prefix is NOT additional information, but most of the time a limiting factor.

The only example, where the prefix raises the importance, is the personal make-up guy. In all other cases the prefix lowers the importance of the function (additional, assistant, unit, etc.) or completly changes the meaning (still photographer, foley mixer, ...).
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DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorMerrik
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Quoting AiAustria:
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Sorry, did not mean to confuse, just wanted to point out, that a prefix is NOT additional information, but most of the time a limiting factor.

The only example, where the prefix raises the importance, is the personal make-up guy. In all other cases the prefix lowers the importance of the function (additional, assistant, unit, etc.) or completly changes the meaning (still photographer, foley mixer, ...).


No worries. I sounded like a jerk in my response, apologies. I just want to make sure that information that doesn't really have much to do with the topic at hand doesn't become the focal point. I've seen it happen to so so so many conversations around here.

That was all.

I'm not sure your example 100% works though.

Adding Supervisor in front of something seems to raise the importance. Supervising Art Director. Then "just" Art Directors. Just because the "just" Art Directors are maybe of "lower importance" than the Supervising Art Director doesn't mean they don't get entered or credited. On Set is not the equivalent to Assistant or Associate. It means there's an Art Director on set, doing that job, on the set. Why would we not credit that guy?

Again, not trying to invalidate anyone's opinion on the subject, I just haven't seen an argument that convinces me (just me) that these aren't direct translations and therefore that they should be entered. An Assistant Art Director is not a direct translation of an Art Director. An On Set Art Director seems like a 100% direct translation of an Art Director to me.
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 Last edited: by Merrik
DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantStar ContributorTheMadMartian
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Quoting AiAustria:
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Sorry, did not mean to confuse, just wanted to point out, that a prefix is NOT additional information, but most of the time a limiting factor.

I assumed that my post would be taken in the context of the thread it was posted in.  My mistake.

Quote:
The only example, where the prefix raises the importance, is the personal make-up guy. In all other cases the prefix lowers the importance of the function (additional, assistant, unit, etc.) or completly changes the meaning (still photographer, foley mixer, ...).

This seems like a reasonable statement when you limit it to the prefixes you list.  It is not, however, a reasonable state3ment when we include other types of credits that are out there...Zombie Make-up, Robotic Special Effects, Miniature Special Effects Supervisor, etc.  Those credits, which I have seen, add additional information to the credit without lowering the importance of the function.
No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
The Centauri learned this lesson once.
We will teach it to them again.
Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
- Citizen G'Kar
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar Contributordee1959jay
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Based on the responses to my questions, I think I would enter them, as they are clearly considered to be part of the main crew by the film makers and do seem to fit the roles as listed in the Invelos crew table.
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorT!M
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Quoting mreeder50:
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an Art Director is an Art Director whether they have a prefix or not.

Similarly, we could also say that a "sound effects editor" is still a "sound editor", just one whose job is defined in a specific way. Same for "On-Set Art Director": still an art director, but one whose job is defined in a specific way. No matter what the outcome of this debate is, I really don't see how you can accept one and not the other. If we want to open up crew credits like this, then we shouldn't be surprised if users will apply that premise accross the board. If an "On-Set Art Director" is deemed valid, I don't see why a "Sound Effects Editor" wouldn't be valid either.
DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantStar Contributormreeder50
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Quoting T!M:
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Similarly, we could also say that a "sound effects editor" is still a "sound editor", just one whose job is defined in a specific way. Same for "On-Set Art Director": still an art director, but one whose job is defined in a specific way. No matter what the outcome of this debate is, I really don't see how you can accept one and not the other. If we want to open up crew credits like this, then we shouldn't be surprised if users will apply that premise accross the board. If an "On-Set Art Director" is deemed valid, I don't see why a "Sound Effects Editor" wouldn't be valid either.

I agree with T!M on this one. I would love to allow them.
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 Last edited: by mreeder50
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorCubbyUps
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Quoting T!M:
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Quoting mreeder50:
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an Art Director is an Art Director whether they have a prefix or not.

Similarly, we could also say that a "sound effects editor" is still a "sound editor", just one whose job is defined in a specific way. Same for "On-Set Art Director": still an art director, but one whose job is defined in a specific way. No matter what the outcome of this debate is, I really don't see how you can accept one and not the other. If we want to open up crew credits like this, then we shouldn't be surprised if users will apply that premise accross the board. If an "On-Set Art Director" is deemed valid, I don't see why a "Sound Effects Editor" wouldn't be valid either.



I disagree.

One is a job description the other is a location.

In the case of a sound effects editor it's clearly an editor that deals only with sound effects.
Whereas an on set special effects supervisor is special effects supervisor who does their work on set.

So, based upon that the special effects supervisor is location based I'd say include them.

Edit: I see it's about art director. Still think they should be included as explained above.
 Last edited: by CubbyUps
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorT!M
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Quoting mreeder50:
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I agree with T!M on this one.

Quoting CubbyUps:
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I disagree.

This is exactly the problem. Different users look at things in different ways, and to build a consistent shared database, we have to have a simple set of rules that aren't subject to those personal interpretations. Either we're strict and say "if it's not in the crew credits table, we don't enter it", or we're loosening it all up, in which case we shouldn't be surprised if loads of credits that we previously left out start making their way into the database. It's a very slippery slope. If we want to allow one kind of prefix or job specification, but not another, then we need a very carefully worded rule adressing that. If we just say: "I guess that's okay", then that makes it pretty hard to stop many other credits from being shoehorned in as well.

Quoting CubbyUps:
Quote:
In the case of a sound effects editor it's clearly an editor that deals only with sound effects.

"deals only with sound effects"? What do you think a sound editor (one whose credit doesn't include the word "effects", that is) does, then? There are primarily three divisions of sound that are combined to create a final mix, these being dialogue, effects, and music. We don't credit "dialogue editors", we don't credit "music editors", and all the rest is pretty much about sound effects.

I've never understood why we don't consistently credit the same people for doing the same job, based on the presence or lack of that one word in their credit. Still, this isn't necessarily a plea for including sound effects editors - I'm just saying that if we want allow other variations that aren't mentioned in the rules like "on-set" credits, then I no longer see why sound effects editors wouldn't be allowed either - to me, the same line of reasoning would apply. Both are labels that aren't explicitly mentioned in the crew credits table as allowed credits, but for both the case could be made that it's the same job, only with a slightly more specific title. So if we allowed one of these, I'd gladly submit the others as well. Unless, of course, there's a specific set of rules that explains why one is allowed and the other isn't. We can't expect the entire userbase to magically make the same distinctions...
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorMerrik
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So I'm looking this up, because once again the waters get muddied. Everything I'm looking up... everything that breaks down the job of a Sound EFFECTS Editor, says that even though they have a very similar job as a Sound Editor... and work closely with the Sound Editor... and that a Sound Editor can and sometimes does do the job of a Sound Effects Editor... the jobs that are performed by a Sound Editor and a Sound Effects Editor are actually different jobs, even if only slightly. And that Sound Effects Editors can specifically be brought onto a film and work under the Sound Editor/Supervising Sound Editor to do that specific job.

Can anyone tell me if this is correct or point me in a direction that disproves this?

Because if this is correct, then Sound Editor =/= Sound Effects Editor, again, even if only slightly. The same way Associate Art Director =/= Art Director. Just because a Sound Editor can and sometimes does do the job of a Sound Effects Editor, does not mean they're the same job.

So if that's the case, we're once again talking about people doing different jobs and that's NOT the topic at hand.

Whereas, everything I've been able to find says that an On Set Art Director does the exact same job as an Art Director, just physically on the set.

So On Set Art Director = Art Director, because they do the exact same job, just one does it in a different location. Is this a direct translation, as the rules allow (we can't ever claim that "if it's not in the crew credits table, we don't enter it" because the rules specifically allow for direct translations).

No one's trying to open the floodgates and allow all sorts of credits that have never been allowed or never been entered before. That misdirection is used every single time someone asks about a credit or a new credit possibly being entered. It's kind of like a fear tactic lol. "Careful, if we do this, then EVERY CREDIT will have to be allowed in!" and no one is even remotely suggesting that. (And if someone does, it can be dealt with on a case by case basis). On Set credits seem to be quite a NEW credit (I've only ever seen them credited on films that were produced in the last couple of years) and as NEW credits appear, the discussion should be opened as to whether they're the same or not.

The credits today that we see in films are not the same that we saw in the nineties. The credits we saw in the nineties are not the same that we saw in the seventies. The seventies were different from the sixties and so on and so on and so on. Job titles have changed and advanced and progressed over time and we might need to discuss every once in awhile specific cases that we might need to progress and advance with, without suggesting it means that all of the sudden every credit ever has to be allowed into the system.
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DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorMerrik
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And just a couple of things...

1. I'd LOVE for Sound Effects Editors to be credited  I track them locally. And just as an FYI, Sound Effects Editors ARE being credited. By different people, on MANY MANY different profiles. So much so that I started a topic asking if they're allowed to be credited. So much so that I actually sent a user a private message because I was able to track dozens of profiles back to his early submissions on US based profiles that ALL included Sound Effects Editors as Sound Editors, to tell him that they're not allowed and if he could please stop submitting them (he was super receptive and polite and hopefully he's no longer submitting them as cloning is so prevalent, and people usually clone from the first available source, that I was finding up to 20-30+ profiles of certain films contained these credits and could all be traced back to a single profile). So much so that I've submitted, I'm going to estimate at least 300-500 contributions, to remove Sound Effects Editors credited as Sound Editors from various different films in the system (to the point where I had to stop submitting because my contributions page was taking an insane amount of time to load).

2. I NEVER expected this topic to change or decide anything 100% of the way for EITHER point of view. But it's always good to open up a dialogue about topics that someone has questions about, especially if those questions are about the advancement and progression of a film's credits and if we should follow along or stay where we're at. If topics like this weren't brought up, prosthetics and special effects coordinators would still not be currently allowed as per the contribution rules.

3. I think I've hit all the talking points that I can personally hit... so I might sit the rest of this one out. But I thank everyone for their opinions, even if I didn't agree with them    and thanks for taking part in the discussion. Even if I seemed like a jerk at points (apologies if I did), I totally appreciated everyone taking the time to throw in their two cents.    I'll still keep up with the topic (if it keeps going) but not sure what else I can say that hasn't been said. I don't want to just continually repeat myself over and over.
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 Last edited: by Merrik
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