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"Co-anything" credits
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DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorT!M
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I'd like to find out how we currently feel about "co-anything" credits. The crew credits table in the contribution rules explicitly names "Co-Anything, Assistants, Associates, Interns" in the "Incorrect Roles" column. Despite that, I do see a number of these credits showing up in the CLT, in literally *every* crew cetagory, which means that not everyone agrees that such "co-" credits are to be left out.

Examples are "Co-Supervising Sound Editors", "Co-Makeup Department Heads" and "Co-Writers": should these be contributed, or not?
 Last edited: by T!M
DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantStar ContributorAiAustria
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If the Co-something means, that there is a difference in the job, then I would stick with the current ban (eg. Producer vs. Co-Producer).

But if two persons are sharing one job, as lately seen in Quantico E07@0:42:43
Quote:
Co-Dept. Head Make-up Artist
  STEPHANIE BROOKE BARNES
  FANNY VACHON

(without credited supervisor)

... I'd list both of them as valid Make-up Artists.
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DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantStar Contributormreeder50
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Direction, Production and Sound Sections are the only sections that list No Co-. To me that means the other sections are open, if any are found.
Marty - Registered July 10, 2004, User since 2002.
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorT!M
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Quoting mreeder50:
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Direction, Production and Sound Sections are the only sections that list No Co-. To me that means the other sections are open, if any are found.

So two "Co-Supervising Sound Editors" sharing the job are out, per the crew credits table in the rules, yet two "Co-Makeup Department Heads" sharing the job are in? Isn't that exactly the same situation? Shouldn't we treat 'em both the same?
 Last edited: by T!M
DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantStar ContributorTheMadMartian
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Maybe we should treat them the same, but this isn't about what we should or shouldn't do...that's what the rules forum is for.  This is about what the rules say we can and can't do, and the rules say we treat them differently.
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DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorT!M
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Quoting TheMadMartian:
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This is about what the rules say we can and can't do, and the rules say we treat them differently.

Not explicitly. You look at one column from the crew credits table, and from that, you're drawing an (incorrect) conclusion. You're forgetting that while the "Incorrect Roles" column with a few examples is nice, it doesn't doesn't take away from the fact that "Co-Anything, Assistants, Associates, Interns" are never included in the "Role" or "Credited As" colums. Sure, the "Incorrect Roles" column lists examples of incorrect roles, but surely that list isn't exhaustive? I'll show you where your line of reasoning collapses. Saying "Well, the sound section lists 'Co-Anything' as incorrect, but the art section doesn't" is the same as saying: "Well, the sound section lists 'Interns' as incorrect, but the art section doesn't". So by your reasoning, any interns listed in the art section should be deemed valid credits?

The same for assistants: the sound section lists 'Assistents' as incorrect, but the art section doesn't. The producer section doesn't either. That makes "Assistent Make-up Artist" and "Assistent Producer" valid credits? That's what you're saying, but have you thought that through? Is that really what we want? You really want to declare "Co-Anything, Assistants, Associates, Interns" valid credits for all sections where those words aren't present in the "Incorrect Roles" column? So "co-writers" are in, "assistant producers" are in, "associate art directors" are in, make-up interns & assistants are in? Really?

Again, to me the list of "Incorrect Roles" gives a few examples, but isn't exhaustive. IMHO, the fact that "Co-Anything, Assistants, Associates, Interns" aren't repeated in every crew section doesn't mean that those are suddenly valid credits in all those other crew categories. The "Co-Anything" credits would be one thing, but I can't imagine that we really want to declare "Assistants, Associates, Interns" valid for each crew category that doesn't explicitly forbids them?
 Last edited: by T!M
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Quoting T!M:
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Again, to me the list of "Incorrect Roles" gives a few examples, but isn't exhaustive.

The Incorrect Roles column only lists the most common mistakes, which should be avoided, and it can never be complete.
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DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorGSyren
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Quiting T!M:
Quote:
the fact that "Co-Anything, Assistants, Associates, Interns" aren't repeated in every crew section doesn't mean that those are suddenly valid credits in all those other crew categories

Agreed!
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Gunnar
DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantStar ContributorAiAustria
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Quoting T!M:
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Quoting mreeder50:
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Direction, Production and Sound Sections are the only sections that list No Co-. To me that means the other sections are open, if any are found.

So two "Co-Supervising Sound Editors" sharing the job are out, per the crew credits table in the rules, yet two "Co-Makeup Department Heads" sharing the job are in? Isn't that exactly the same situation? Shouldn't we treat 'em both the same?

Yes these are the same and we should treat them in the same way.

From the logical standpoint two persons sharing a job should also share the credit (and be listed in DVDP). BTW, the usual type of listing the credits is simple omitting the Co and listing more than one person for a single job: it is common, that there is more than one producer listed, it is usual, that there is more than one screenwirter listed, ...

I'll never understand, why the wording of the credits should be more important than the meaning.
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DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorT!M
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Quoting AiAustria:
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I'll never understand, why the wording of the credits should be more important than the meaning.

Aside from everything else, I can answer that one: because that's how you build a consistent, shared database - everyone needs to be on the same page. If everyone ignores the actual written rules in favour of their own perceived "meaning", then the result is a mess. That's why wording of the rules is important.
 Last edited: by T!M
DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantStar Contributormreeder50
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Why are you over complicating this, just follow the rules as they are stated and stop trying to make a case for not following what is down in black and white. Done now.
Marty - Registered July 10, 2004, User since 2002.
DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantStar ContributorTheMadMartian
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Quoting T!M:
Quote:
Quoting TheMadMartian:
Quote:
This is about what the rules say we can and can't do, and the rules say we treat them differently.

Not explicitly. You look at one column from the crew credits table, and from that, you're drawing an (incorrect) conclusion. You're forgetting that while the "Incorrect Roles" column with a few examples is nice, it doesn't doesn't take away from the fact that "Co-Anything, Assistants, Associates, Interns" are never included in the "Role" or "Credited As" colums.

I am not forgetting anything and my conclusion being incorrect is simply your opinion, which is no more or less valid than mine.

I will say this again, because you clearly ignored it the first time I said it...Maybe we should treat them the same, but this isn't about what we should or shouldn't do...that's what the rules forum is for.  This is about what the rules say we can and can't do, and the rules say we treat them differently.

Now, let me clarify that statement.  As in many areas, this particular section of the rules isn't cut and dry.  The rules don't specifically say you 'can' enter them, but they also don't specifically say you 'can't' enter them.  Until Ken weighs in, or the chart is updated, both interpretations are equally valid regardless of what the poll results are.

As far as " never included in the "Role" or "Credited As" colums", there are quite a few roles that are never included in the Role or Credited As columns that are always entered.  Visual Effects, Make-up Effects & Creature Designer are three areas that immediately come to mind.
No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
The Centauri learned this lesson once.
We will teach it to them again.
Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
- Citizen G'Kar
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorT!M
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Quoting TheMadMartian:
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The rules don't specifically say you 'can' enter them, but they also don't specifically say you 'can't' enter them.

Of course, you can analyze everything to death this way. You're actually arguing that the rules allow "co-writers", "assistant producers", "associate art directors", make-up interns & assistants and loads more, simply because the rules don't explicitly forbid each and every one of them. That's quite a sad approach to the rules, and one that effectively shuts up every serious question.

I really don't believe that "everything that isn't explicitly forbidden is valid" is what we want, so I'll go with the poll results.
 Last edited: by T!M
DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantStar ContributorTheMadMartian
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Quoting T!M:
Quote:
Quoting TheMadMartian:
Quote:
The rules don't specifically say you 'can' enter them, but they also don't specifically say you 'can't' enter them.

Of course, you can analyze everything to death this way. You're actually arguing that the rules allow "co-writers", "assistant producers", "associate art directors", make-up interns & assistants and loads more, simply because the rules don't explicitly forbid each and every one of them. That's quite a sad approach to the rules, and one that effectively shuts up every serious question.

Let me be very clear here because you're still not getting it, I am NOT arguing that the rules allow anything, I am simply saying that they can be read that way...which, clearly they can otherwise the poll would be 22-0, instead of 17-5 and there wouldn't be entries in the database that you want to remove.
Quote:
I really don't believe that "everything that isn't explicitly forbidden is valid" is what we want, so I'll go with the poll results.

I never said that I believed that either, but it really doesn't matter what I believe as I am not the 'enforcer of the rules'.  None of us are and until the rule is changed, no poll or opinion is going to prevent those that believe they are valid credits from entering them.
No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
The Centauri learned this lesson once.
We will teach it to them again.
Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
- Citizen G'Kar
 Last edited: by TheMadMartian
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