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Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Desktop Feature Requests |
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| Registered: August 22, 2007 | Reputation:  | | Posts: 1,807 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting skipnet50: Quote:
Just like the one I mentioned, Rho. If I ran into something like that I would not touch it.
Of course. If a profile has localized/modified roles, that's probably because the film credits are localized/modified, so leave them as they are. On the contrary, profiles with Cast and Crew that are a very close match to a third party database have "standard" (but often wrong) roles, and you can spot them because they are a verbatim copy. | | | | -- Enry |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 2,759 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting skipnet50: Quote:
 Have a little faith. Yes, I have little faith. Oops, sorry, I could not resist. |
| | Registered: March 14, 2007 | Reputation:  |  Posts: 4,679 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Skip: Quote:
What do you NOT comprehend. I am using the DVD, the one I happen to own. It does not go any further than that. Who are you to try and tell ME what the intent of the Rules is, you have a pair, sir. So it is your contention that the phrase "always verify the information directly from the DVD" means any DVD with the film, not the DVD that matches the actual profile that you are updating? Quote:
I am not addressing ANY issue other than Cast and Crew data I never said that you were. But you may just open the door for other less scrupulous users. I do wish you could address the specific issues rather than repeat your generally demeaning putdowns. Quote:
The other point that you don't seem to comprehend Gunnar is just how hard ths is to do. What are you trying to say? Do the rules apply differently if the work is hard? You asked for a solution. I have already given it. Convince Ken to change the rules so that what you are doing is explicitly allowed. Then I have absolutely no problem with it. | | | My freeware tools for DVD Profiler users.
Gunnar |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: |  Posts: 6,635 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting the Contribution Rules: Quote:
The authoritative source for information submitted should be the DVD itself. and Quoting the Contribution Rules: Quote:
...so always verify the information directly from the DVD whenever possible. The English language is pretty specific in the the use of articles. In the above quotes the article used is "the", meaning a specific DVD, namely the one that you are doing the profile for. If the Ruels had said "...verify the information directly from a DVD whenever possible", then you might have an argument. Fortunately for us they specifically state "the" DVD. Any argument that the meaning is anything other than "the DVD" that you are contributing is specious at best and downright dishonest at worst. | | | | Hal |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 21,610 |
| | Posted: | | | | The Rules do allow for it, Gunnar.
Skip | | | ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here
Billy Video |
| | Registered: August 22, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 1,807 |
| | Posted: | | | | I think it also depends on how you read them, and it is my impression that the Screeners read them that way. Correct me if I am wrong. Have they ever declined a contribution that states that Cast & Crew were taken from another profile, just because of that? | | | | -- Enry |
| | Registered: March 14, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 4,679 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting EnryWiki: Quote:
I think it also depends on how you read them, and it is my impression that the Screeners read them that way. Correct me if I am wrong. Have they ever declined a contribution that states that Cast & Crew were taken from another profile, just because of that? But that's an entirely different matter. You take cast and crew from one profile and copy it to a profile of a DVD that you own. Then you verify that they match. (With "you" I don't necessarily mean you personally, EnryWiki). Skip is taking cast and crew from his Region 1 profile and using it to correct the profile of a R2 DVD that he doesn't own, so he cannot verify that the data is correct for that version. | | | My freeware tools for DVD Profiler users.
Gunnar |
| | Registered: August 22, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 1,807 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting GSyren: Quote:
But that's an entirely different matter. You take cast and crew from one profile and copy it to a profile of a DVD that you own. Then you verify that they match.
If you (impersonal you, of course) verified that they match, I guess you'll say so in the contribution note. If you only write "Cast & Crew from a R1 profile of the same name.", or suchlike, I gather you did not necessarily verify that they match. | | | | -- Enry | | | | Last edited: by White Pongo, Jr. |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 21,610 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting GSyren: Quote:
Quoting EnryWiki:
Quote:
I think it also depends on how you read them, and it is my impression that the Screeners read them that way. Correct me if I am wrong. Have they ever declined a contribution that states that Cast & Crew were taken from another profile, just because of that?
But that's an entirely different matter. You take cast and crew from one profile and copy it to a profile of a DVD that you own. Then you verify that they match. (With "you" I don't necessarily mean you personally, EnryWiki).
Skip is taking cast and crew from his Region 1 profile and using it to correct the profile of a R2 DVD that he doesn't own, so he cannot verify that the data is correct for that version. Gunnar: As I said that is YOUR interpretation, not MINE. And since you had absolutely NO involvement in their development, I will not bow at your feet when it comes to interpretation and what you migh think intent is. Nor anyone else's for that matter, there is only one that I will respond to in that regard. Skip | | | ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here
Billy Video |
| | Registered: March 14, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 4,679 |
| | Posted: | | | | I'm not asking you to bow at my feet, Skip. I'm only asking you to respond to the concerns raised. So far you have totally ignored them. By the way, why do you go on about Hollywood movies? Are there separate rules for those? If you do this for Hollywood movies, doesn't that mean that someone else can do the same thing for, say, Spanish movies? Do you have any idea of how many different versions with different credits there are for some of Jess Franco's movies? But no, I guess you don't care. You don't do Franco movies, so the implications don't bother you.  | | | My freeware tools for DVD Profiler users.
Gunnar |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 3,480 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting EnryWiki: Quote:
I think it also depends on how you read them, and it is my impression that the Screeners read them that way. Correct me if I am wrong. Have they ever declined a contribution that states that Cast & Crew were taken from another profile, just because of that? The only ones I've seen declined were those which did not specifically document the uncredited cast. | | | ...James
"People fake a lot of human interactions, but I feel like I fake them all, and I fake them very well. That’s my burden, I guess." ~ Dexter Morgan |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 2,372 |
| | Posted: | | | | While I applaud any effort to 'fix' the database I have to point out something I don't believe has been brought up yet as a reason not to do this. I hope I can explain it so everyone understands it. The rules are very clear: Cast and crew are to come from the film credits only. Their meaning is very clear: You have to have the DVD in hand to verify the film credits. One of the reason we have to have the DVD in hand: Pre-release titles We don't add cast and crew to pre-release submissions. (although I have seen many such submissions recently  ). To use a real life example, I recently added Groundhog Day Special 15th Anniversary Edition to my wishlist. (  ) Skip added this title as a pre-release yet did not include the cast even though he has the original title in your collection as well. I can only guess as to why but my guess would be because he knows he has to verify the credits prior to submitting. He (as well as most of us) will vote no to a submission that included cast and crew on a pre-release title with the reason as "source is to be the DVD only" (some simply shorten their reason to slmply "SOURCE? ") We have all seen it and accept it. To me, what is being discussed here it is the same situation. Doing what you are proposing will open the door for anyone to submit cast and crew for any pre-release title even if it is not yet available on DVD. There will be nothing to stop someone from adding a cast from their VHS copy or even a DVR copy of something they recorded on TV! As long as their intent is to add correct information to the Db with the ultimate goal of creating the most accurate Db it will have to be considered OK. After all, they have a copy of "the film" just as you do with all of the titles you are going to change. Please think about what you are doing and the ramifications of it before you take this too far. Before you ask, any answer as to how to fix it should come from a round-table discussion with Ken since he is the one who can tell us what he is able and willing to do. Perhaps a scheduled chat could be arranged and questions/suggestions could be submitted to him ahead of time. It worked when we developed the rules and IMO could give us an fix here that would work for everyone without setting dangerous precedence. |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 21,610 |
| | Posted: | | | | Rick: If you have read everything I hjave said that concern has been considered, adderssed and a plan in place here to assess it, should it come up. Now I won't disgaree about a discussion with ken but based on the past that is not likely nor is a swift reponse to address the problem. This is a very serious and it has to be addressed the faster the better. I have not yet seen any indication that my hypothesis is wrong, what I am seeing internationally is...well unbelievable to say the least. Our international friends seem to be by and large, save for a few, completely ignoring the Rules and taking shortcuts which are leading to massive errors. Some Localities seem to be better than others and I will wager you could probably come up some pretty acurate guesses. One of the other MAJOR problems that Ken needs to address for the next beta is to allow for the Program to be able to see upper and lower case as separate data, so that we can enter Van or van as appropriate per credits and be able to get accurate resulkts from the Lookup Tool which we cannot do at this time in this regard. All that said, I remain absolutely convinced that the Alias system that I suggested is still far more appropriate and much easier to deal with, but i am also concerned that a changeover at this point may cause unintended problems, but I am doing some "gaming" here to try and work through the validity of that concern. Skip | | | ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here
Billy Video | | | | Last edited: by Winston Smith |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 3,480 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting lyonsden5: Quote:
Before you ask, any answer as to how to fix it should come from a round-table discussion with Ken since he is the one who can tell us what he is able and willing to do. Perhaps a scheduled chat could be arranged and questions/suggestions could be submitted to him ahead of time. It worked when we developed the rules and IMO could give us an fix here that would work for everyone without setting dangerous precedence. I definitely agree. Quoting skipnet50: Quote:
If you have read everything I hjave said that concern has been considered, adderssed and a plan in place here to assess it, should it come up. You don't have the option to do any of that though. It's a good plan and one which I agree with, but it can't proceed unless Invelos lifts the rule that credits have to come from the DVD. Quoting skipnet50: Quote:
Now I won't disgaree about a discussion with ken but based on the past that is not likely nor is a swift reponse to address the problem. We don't have the authority to implement good ideas while we wait for Ken to act. Never have. You yourself always remind us that polls are not rules. Quoting skipnet50: Quote:
This is a very serious and it has to be addressed the faster the better. That doesn't give us the right to circumvent the rules either. Quoting skipnet50: Quote:
I have not yet seen any indication that my hypothesis is wrong, Even though I agree that your plan is a good one, there are flaws. I hope you can see them. Credits have changed between releases. That's been demonstrated very recently. RHo has pointed out a couple of other cautions. I'm not sure we've investigated enough to even provide Ken with good information from which he could make his decision on this, if he's inclined to do so. Quoting skipnet50: Quote:
what I am seeing internationally is...well unbelievable to say the least. Our international friends seem to be by and large, save for a few, completely ignoring the Rules and taking shortcuts which are leading to massive errors. Some Localities seem to be better than others and I will wager you could probably come up some pretty acurate guesses. I think many of these profiles are legacy pre-rules profiles that aren't being updated to current standards. Quote:
One of the other MAJOR problems that Ken needs to address for the next beta is to allow for the Program to be able to see upper and lower case as separate data, so that we can enter Van or van as appropriate per credits and be able to get accurate resulkts from the Lookup Tool which we cannot do at this time in this regard. It can be addressed via Credited As, but you are correct that the lookup tool doesn't help determine which is most credited. | | | ...James
"People fake a lot of human interactions, but I feel like I fake them all, and I fake them very well. That’s my burden, I guess." ~ Dexter Morgan | | | | Last edited: by m.cellophane |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 2,372 |
| | Posted: | | | | EDIT: Adding a quote of SKip's post since we jumped to the next page Quoting skipnet50: Quote:
Rick:
If you have read everything I hjave said that concern has been considered, adderssed and a plan in place here to assess it, should it come up. Now I won't disgaree about a discussion with ken but based on the past that is not likely nor is a swift reponse to address the problem. This is a very serious and it has to be addressed the faster the better. I have not yet seen any indication that my hypothesis is wrong, what I am seeing internationally is...well unbelievable to say the least. Our international friends seem to be by and large, save for a few, completely ignoring the Rules and taking shortcuts which are leading to massive errors. Some Localities seem to be better than others and I will wager you could probably come up some pretty acurate guesses.
One of the other MAJOR problems that Ken needs to address for the next beta is to allow for the Program to be able to see upper and lower case as separate data, so that we can enter Van or van as appropriate per credits and be able to get accurate resulkts from the Lookup Tool which we cannot do at this time in this regard.
All that said, I remain absolutely convinced that the Alias system that I suggested is still far more appropriate and much easier to deal with, but i am also concerned that a changeover at this point may cause unintended problems, but I am doing some "gaming" here to try and work through the validity of that concern.
Skip Just re-checked the thread and see no such plan discussed.  If you continue and they get approved it will open the door for any and all cast to be submitted even if the DVD hasn't been released. If you can do it for movies you don't have why can't anyone else? The credits for a movie on TV, VHS, etc will be the same as the DVD... right? Well, there may be a couple changes that would need to be made but according to the new plan that would be OK. All you have to do is add the note youp used but change it a bit from "Source for data is R1 US release 097360-140743 If there is any variation in release data please let me know" to "Source for data is R1 US VHS release 0xxxxxx-xxxxx3 If there is any variation when released please let me know" or "Source for data is R1 US Theatrical release of the movie. I copied the cast as the end credits scrolled. If there is any variation when released please let me know"  It's a plan, just not a very good one IMO. A post from Ken on the subject would certainly be welcomed. I've said what I had to say.  | | | | Last edited: by lyonsden5 |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 21,610 |
| | Posted: | | | | oopsie | | | ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here
Billy Video | | | | Last edited: by Winston Smith |
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Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Desktop Feature Requests |
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