Quoting Ascended_Saiyan:

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Quoting Battling Butler:

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Quoting Ascended_Saiyan:

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Quoting stefc:

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Thanks Erik, its nice to read an informative, intelligent post with some useful info, in amongst all of that idiot's endless garbage.

Are you projecting your self image, again?

Damn, A-S, you really are and A S S  

Ah, the last refuge of someone that doesn't have a logical argument.

You do not deal in logic. Your idea of “logic” is  “1 + 1 = 3 because I said so, and I laugh in the face of any who says otherwise.” Your one-sided, fanboy propaganda rants are not logical, they are clearly ego driven. Your penchant for deriding anyone who dares to state an opinion different that your own is not logic. You are nothing but a blu-ray megalomaniac. You are an a s s.

Quoting amirm:

Quote:
Was hoping the arguments would be useful for others.

They certainly are.

Meanwhile:

- - -

Blades of Glory - First TrueHD from Paramount:

1080p High Definition 1.85:1
Dolby Digital-Plus 5.1 (English, French & Spanish) & Dolby TrueHD 5.1 (English)

Paramount's HD DVD of "Next" will also have TrueHD.

And I'm sure, despite everything said, that Ascended_Saiyan is sitting somewhere with a calculator since the HD DVD release of "Troy: Director's Cut" will run 196 minutes.   Hmm, didn't "Mutiny on the Bounty" clock in about 10 minutes short of that, with a good bunch of extra features?

Quoting amirm:

Quote:
Are you saying that Universal, Warner and Paramount make movies and employ people that are somehow different than that of Disney/Fox?

WHAT?!  How you got that out of...Disney asked Blu-ray for 50GB discs from the beginning...truly departs from logic.

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As to Disney asking for it from the beg. why do you think TL-45 was created?

I think it was purely an after thought to be more competitive with Blu-ray.

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It was to test to see if they really cared about capacity or not after saying it was important to them.  And guess what?  They still did not support HD DVD.  So we know capacity isn’t it.

As you said before, TL-45GB was never ratified.  50GB discs were already in the Blu-ray specs.  Disney also wanted region coding and stronger copy protection.  Disney (and maybe even Fox) would have supported HD DVD as well if the HD DVD camp provided these things.  The HD DVD camp refused and the rest is history.

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Otherwise, I would be all excited, thinking that Disney would adopt HD DVD once we have TL-51.  You see, logic is a pesky thing, isn’t it? 

Do you think Disney would just wait around for the HD DVD camp to ratify these discs, nail down the manufacturing process, and produce discs?  Plus, that extra space still doesn't solve the lower bandwidth that HD DVD has.  That must be that pesky logic you mentioned earlier.

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It is their job to keep innovating.  We will probably have vC-2 video compression format that is better than VC-1.  It would not be compatible with VC-1.  But would provide even better performance, making new applications like digital delivery have better quality at the same rate, or have other features I won’t talk about.  Are you seriously suggesting that we shouldn’t do that and instead, should send all the engineers to an indefinite island vacation?

Instead of wasting time developing extra space that is not needed (according to you) on a HD DVD disc, maybe their efforts would be better spent on improving HD DVD's bandwidth and security.  Oh wait...that's not needed either, right?  I guess that's why the HD DVD camp only ended up with 1 major exclusive studio.

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Keep this in mind as you keep bringing up TL-51.  If Toshiba succeeds in creating a spec that is backward compatible and yet, brings even more capacity than BD format, what is left for BD to claim?

Bandwidth...that's very important.  But, most important is major studio support.  9 out of the 10 top movies so far this year will be on Blu-ray.  4 out of the 10 top movies so far this year will be on HD DVD.

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I mean having too much DRM with BD+ is not it.

Well, that one thing that caused Fox and Disney to be Blu-ray exclusive.  That seems important.

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Having region coding is not it.

That's another reason Fox and Disney and exclusive to Blu-ray.  That also seems important.

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Having more expensive players is not it.  Having more expensive optical pick ups is not it.

More expensive like the Toshiba HD-XA2.

The Toshiba player with similar functions to the Samsung BD-P1200, but the BD-P1200 can be had for over $100 cheaper.  I guess that price advantage is not once what it was.  

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Oh I know, having people buy a single BD disc per PS3 must be it .

Didn't you hear.  There are about 1.6 million Blu-ray players in North America.  There are about 1.6 million or more BDs sold since inception.  That would ratio would be a 1 disc per BD player attach rate.

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Did you read the bit where I talked about tolerances?  Or the part that said 50 gigabyte discs are difficult and expensive to make?

50GB BDs are SO expensive to make that they cost me less than a HD DVD combo title.  I hope they continue to be THAT expensive for rest of this year.

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I can draw a picture for both HD DVD and BD, and keep showing more layers with thinner and flatter specs for the layers written on it.  But this doesn’t mean anyone can manufacture them.

The proposals for higher capacity BD discs were for one thing, in the area of recordables.  And in all cases, it requires completely different drives, electronics and pick ups.    The recordable media costs $1/gigabytes for BD.  With that being much worse than hard disks, I don’t see the economics in bringing out even more expensive recordable media.

In contrast, TL-51 has been show to work and be manufacturable.  Yes, it increases complexity and cost beyond HD DVD-30.  But nothing like the pipe dreams regarding higher capacity BD discs.  Fortunately, BDA itself rarely talks about these higher capacity discs, knowing they have their hands full trying to get BD-50 working.

Quick someone needs to tell Hitachi that.  Silly them...they have no idea what they are getting into.

Someone need to tell Maxwell that as well.  I can't believe these companies are SO stupid. 

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I guess I need to bring more education here too .  DVD Forum is a public entity unlike BDA.  All matters that are voted on are a matter of public record.  They are put on their web site and the next day, everyone in the world knows about them.  The votes are posted on AVS Forum news thread and major publications like CED cover them with more background info on what they mean.  So no secret will be kept.

That's good to know for all those HD DVD supporters out there.

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Contrast the above with BD+ copy protection.  To this date, no one has any idea what this system is going to do to your player.  None!

According to BDA members it was being tested with EVERY type of BD player to see if there were any compatibility issues.  Obviously, that portion is done and Fox is announcing titles again for certain areas.  So, your statement sounds like FUD.

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This, when its counterpart, AACS, gives you full spec, compliance rules, etc.  So if you are a fan of transparency, you better move to our camp.  The weather is much nicer here!

I'm sure things move more smoothly when you have less support to worry about.

Quote:
Was there a ghost of you that I was arguing with last time when I addressed this point?  I mean even most avid BD fans admit that their argument doesn’t hold water since Universal until recently, did not use lossless audio regardless of movie length.  So your argument has no basis in fact or history.

Let's put that to the test, shall we?  King Kong was released on HD DVD November 14, 2006.

End of Days (Universal also) was released on HD DVD...September 26, 2006.  Somehow this one ended up with a TrueHD soundtrack.  If my argument held any more water, we could call it a reservoir.

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And of course, KK received stellar audio review.  If this is bad in your book, then I don’t know what to tell you: http://hddvd.highdefdigest.com/kingkong2005.html

Just think how good it COULD have been with a lossless track.

Quote:
So you see, there is more to quality than bits and bytes.  Or lossless versus lossy.  Lest you forget that none of this is about technology.  It is about enjoyment of movies.

What better way to enjoy a movie than with a lossless soundtrack on EVERY title?

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And I challenge you to find anyone who experiences the above, and still comes away empty handed.  Project Hydra employees excluded .

Would "Project Hydra" employees be anything like MS employees making posts on various forums to spread their company's agenda?

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Let's see.  First, you try to discredit the article.  Then, you turn around and try to use information from the article to make a point. 

I used nothing from the article.  The article references a replicator which has its pricing in public:
“One of the only replication companies that actually lists their pricing publicly is ProActionMedia and we found the following replication costs listed on their website.”

That is the part I referred to.  Nothing else in the article is factual that can be verified.  Here is the link to ProActionMedia page again which states their pricing for BD-25 but not BD-50: http://www.proactionmedia.com/blu-ray_replication.htm

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On top of that, you want me to believe a forum thread from which the information can not be verified for accurancy.  Interesting.

The person posting on AVS is a verified insider working for ProActionMedia.  He is posting in a public forum while introducing himself as working for said company.  All of that has far more weight in my opinion than an unknown source in an internet blog.

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So, in other words, it costs too much to implement.  I could have sworn that was what I said.

Good grief.  No.  Warner stamps out 500 million discs per year.  So besides cost, you have to have yields and volume manufacturability.  Saying you can make one disc in a lab at $1000, is not the full story.  Although damning enough nevertheless .

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We own patents in MPEG-4 AVC.  Sony shipped millions of PSPs with AVC codec before the patent pool was formed.  So you could say they were infringing our patents by shipping that product since they had not taken a license from us.  As you may know, Apple uses MPEG-4 AVC in iTunes/iPod.  To my knowledge, they have not yet licensed AVC either.  Do you have the same choice words for them?

According to the MPEG LA, "Each Licensor is under an obligation to grant to MPEG LA a worldwide, nonexclusive license under all AVC Essential Patents that it has the right to license or sublicense without payment to any third party, allowing MPEG LA to grant worldwide, nonexclusive sublicenses under such patents under terms of the AVC Patent Portfolio License."

Don't get it wrong.  I do have some understanding of this.  I have a patent or two myself at $6K a piece or a few more I want to get done.  It's not quite the same, but it's similar.

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Why do you have sympathies for the comporessionists who have to do their job once, but not for the poor manufacturing people who have to figure out how to stamp out these difficult BD discs?

It's not sympathy for the compressionists.  I just want my content in the highest quality in the least amount of time.  I believe I stated that before.

There you go, again, with the "difficult BD" stuff.  In advertising you have to mention something at least 5 times for it to stick (true or not).  How many was that?

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Why do studios have to pay more per disc for BD but if a compressionist works an extra week to get the best quality is not?

BD titles are less expensive than HD DVD titles, and BD blank media is much less expensive per GB than HD DVD's.  What are you talking about? 

Quote:
Not at all.  Who says it takes too long?  Sony uses an AVC encoder that runs 12X slower than real-time.  Our VC-1 encoder runs at about 2X slower than real-time.  So we could encode a movie 6 times before Sony encodes it once.  Since Sony seems unwilling to use VC-1, then you must assume that they enjoy no benefit here whatsoever.  So your hypothesis here is incorrect.

Funny.  You just said a while ago "...but if a compressionist works an extra week to get the best quality...".

How many hours in an extra week?  Is it enough time for the different encoding times (assuming you VC-1 encoder speed is correct)?  Now add how many passes you have to generally do on a VC-1 encode and AVC on BD is the faster.  Let's not even talk about MPEG-2 (it has a lot of great reviews, too).

Quote:
You should be able to see artifacts there although there is no guarantee.  We are talking about low level signals and DILA has a bit of trouble with that.  But more so, you can’t get too close to screen or the image washes out due to screen gain (and the fact that it is rear projection).  With an LCD for example, you get close and see the artifacts so that you know what to look for. 

But here there are some quick examples.  See if you can see them:
• 56:08 – close-up of pirates face while holding gold necklace showing blocking in his hat.
• 57:51 – side view of pirate while petting monkey showing blocking in his hat

Well, I looked at 2 secs worth of video for 15 mins.  I had no such luck.  I guess I must be in that boat with the other 5 major reviewers.  One of the reviewers has the same model TV I do. 


I need to go to sleep.  I will answer the other portion when I have some more free time.

Quoting Ascended_Saiyan:

Quote:
Quoting amirm:

Quote:
Are you saying that Universal, Warner and Paramount make movies and employ people that are somehow different than that of Disney/Fox?

WHAT?!  How you got that out of...Disney asked Blu-ray for 50GB discs from the beginning...truly departs from logic.

Quote:
As to Disney asking for it from the beg. why do you think TL-45 was created?

I think it was purely an after thought to be more competitive with Blu-ray.

Quote:
It was to test to see if they really cared about capacity or not after saying it was important to them.  And guess what?  They still did not support HD DVD.  So we know capacity isn’t it.

As you said before, TL-45GB was never ratified.  50GB discs were already in the Blu-ray specs.  Disney also wanted region coding and stronger copy protection.  Disney (and maybe even Fox) would have supported HD DVD as well if the HD DVD camp provided these things.  The HD DVD camp refused and the rest is history.

Quote:
Otherwise, I would be all excited, thinking that Disney would adopt HD DVD once we have TL-51.  You see, logic is a pesky thing, isn’t it? 

Do you think Disney would just wait around for the HD DVD camp to ratify these discs, nail down the manufacturing process, and produce discs?  Plus, that extra space still doesn't solve the lower bandwidth that HD DVD has.  That must be that pesky logic you mentioned earlier.

Quote:
It is their job to keep innovating.  We will probably have vC-2 video compression format that is better than VC-1.  It would not be compatible with VC-1.  But would provide even better performance, making new applications like digital delivery have better quality at the same rate, or have other features I won’t talk about.  Are you seriously suggesting that we shouldn’t do that and instead, should send all the engineers to an indefinite island vacation?

Instead of wasting time developing extra space that is not needed (according to you) on a HD DVD disc, maybe their efforts would be better spent on improving HD DVD's bandwidth and security.  Oh wait...that's not needed either, right?  I guess that's why the HD DVD camp only ended up with 1 major exclusive studio.

Quote:
Keep this in mind as you keep bringing up TL-51.  If Toshiba succeeds in creating a spec that is backward compatible and yet, brings even more capacity than BD format, what is left for BD to claim?

Bandwidth...that's very important.  But, most important is major studio support.  9 out of the 10 top movies so far this year will be on Blu-ray.  4 out of the 10 top movies so far this year will be on HD DVD.

Quote:
I mean having too much DRM with BD+ is not it.

Well, that one thing that caused Fox and Disney to be Blu-ray exclusive.  That seems important.

Quote:
Having region coding is not it.

That's another reason Fox and Disney and exclusive to Blu-ray.  That also seems important.

Quote:
Having more expensive players is not it.  Having more expensive optical pick ups is not it.

More expensive like the Toshiba HD-XA2.

The Toshiba player with similar functions to the Samsung BD-P1200, but the BD-P1200 can be had for over $100 cheaper.  I guess that price advantage is not once what it was.  

Quote:
Oh I know, having people buy a single BD disc per PS3 must be it .

Didn't you hear.  There are about 1.6 million Blu-ray players in North America.  There are about 1.6 million or more BDs sold since inception.  That would ratio would be a 1 disc per BD player attach rate.

Quote:
Did you read the bit where I talked about tolerances?  Or the part that said 50 gigabyte discs are difficult and expensive to make?

50GB BDs are SO expensive to make that they cost me less than a HD DVD combo title.  I hope they continue to be THAT expensive for rest of this year.

Quote:
I can draw a picture for both HD DVD and BD, and keep showing more layers with thinner and flatter specs for the layers written on it.  But this doesn’t mean anyone can manufacture them.

The proposals for higher capacity BD discs were for one thing, in the area of recordables.  And in all cases, it requires completely different drives, electronics and pick ups.    The recordable media costs $1/gigabytes for BD.  With that being much worse than hard disks, I don’t see the economics in bringing out even more expensive recordable media.

In contrast, TL-51 has been show to work and be manufacturable.  Yes, it increases complexity and cost beyond HD DVD-30.  But nothing like the pipe dreams regarding higher capacity BD discs.  Fortunately, BDA itself rarely talks about these higher capacity discs, knowing they have their hands full trying to get BD-50 working.

Quick someone needs to tell Hitachi that.  Silly them...they have no idea what they are getting into.

Someone need to tell Maxwell that as well.  I can't believe these companies are SO stupid. 

Quote:
I guess I need to bring more education here too .  DVD Forum is a public entity unlike BDA.  All matters that are voted on are a matter of public record.  They are put on their web site and the next day, everyone in the world knows about them.  The votes are posted on AVS Forum news thread and major publications like CED cover them with more background info on what they mean.  So no secret will be kept.

That's good to know for all those HD DVD supporters out there.

Quote:
Contrast the above with BD+ copy protection.  To this date, no one has any idea what this system is going to do to your player.  None!

According to BDA members it was being tested with EVERY type of BD player to see if there were any compatibility issues.  Obviously, that portion is done and Fox is announcing titles again for certain areas.  So, your statement sounds like FUD.

Quote:
This, when its counterpart, AACS, gives you full spec, compliance rules, etc.  So if you are a fan of transparency, you better move to our camp.  The weather is much nicer here!

I'm sure things move more smoothly when you have less support to worry about.

Quote:
Was there a ghost of you that I was arguing with last time when I addressed this point?  I mean even most avid BD fans admit that their argument doesn’t hold water since Universal until recently, did not use lossless audio regardless of movie length.  So your argument has no basis in fact or history.

Let's put that to the test, shall we?  King Kong was released on HD DVD November 14, 2006.

End of Days (Universal also) was released on HD DVD...September 26, 2006.  Somehow this one ended up with a TrueHD soundtrack.  If my argument held any more water, we could call it a reservoir.

Quote:
And of course, KK received stellar audio review.  If this is bad in your book, then I don’t know what to tell you: http://hddvd.highdefdigest.com/kingkong2005.html

Just think how good it COULD have been with a lossless track.

Quote:
So you see, there is more to quality than bits and bytes.  Or lossless versus lossy.  Lest you forget that none of this is about technology.  It is about enjoyment of movies.

What better way to enjoy a movie than with a lossless soundtrack on EVERY title?

Quote:
And I challenge you to find anyone who experiences the above, and still comes away empty handed.  Project Hydra employees excluded .

Would "Project Hydra" employees be anything like MS employees making posts on various forums to spread their company's agenda?

Quote:
Let's see.  First, you try to discredit the article.  Then, you turn around and try to use information from the article to make a point. 

I used nothing from the article.  The article references a replicator which has its pricing in public:
“One of the only replication companies that actually lists their pricing publicly is ProActionMedia and we found the following replication costs listed on their website.”

That is the part I referred to.  Nothing else in the article is factual that can be verified.  Here is the link to ProActionMedia page again which states their pricing for BD-25 but not BD-50: http://www.proactionmedia.com/blu-ray_replication.htm

Quote:
On top of that, you want me to believe a forum thread from which the information can not be verified for accurancy.  Interesting.

The person posting on AVS is a verified insider working for ProActionMedia.  He is posting in a public forum while introducing himself as working for said company.  All of that has far more weight in my opinion than an unknown source in an internet blog.

Quote:
So, in other words, it costs too much to implement.  I could have sworn that was what I said.

Good grief.  No.  Warner stamps out 500 million discs per year.  So besides cost, you have to have yields and volume manufacturability.  Saying you can make one disc in a lab at $1000, is not the full story.  Although damning enough nevertheless .

Quote:
We own patents in MPEG-4 AVC.  Sony shipped millions of PSPs with AVC codec before the patent pool was formed.  So you could say they were infringing our patents by shipping that product since they had not taken a license from us.  As you may know, Apple uses MPEG-4 AVC in iTunes/iPod.  To my knowledge, they have not yet licensed AVC either.  Do you have the same choice words for them?

According to the MPEG LA, "Each Licensor is under an obligation to grant to MPEG LA a worldwide, nonexclusive license under all AVC Essential Patents that it has the right to license or sublicense without payment to any third party, allowing MPEG LA to grant worldwide, nonexclusive sublicenses under such patents under terms of the AVC Patent Portfolio License."

Don't get it wrong.  I do have some understanding of this.  I have a patent or two myself at $6K a piece or a few more I want to get done.  It's not quite the same, but it's similar.

Quote:
Why do you have sympathies for the comporessionists who have to do their job once, but not for the poor manufacturing people who have to figure out how to stamp out these difficult BD discs?

It's not sympathy for the compressionists.  I just want my content in the highest quality in the least amount of time.  I believe I stated that before.

There you go, again, with the "difficult BD" stuff.  In advertising you have to mention something at least 5 times for it to stick (true or not).  How many was that?

Quote:
Why do studios have to pay more per disc for BD but if a compressionist works an extra week to get the best quality is not?

BD titles are less expensive than HD DVD titles, and BD blank media is much less expensive per GB than HD DVD's.  What are you talking about? 

Quote:
Not at all.  Who says it takes too long?  Sony uses an AVC encoder that runs 12X slower than real-time.  Our VC-1 encoder runs at about 2X slower than real-time.  So we could encode a movie 6 times before Sony encodes it once.  Since Sony seems unwilling to use VC-1, then you must assume that they enjoy no benefit here whatsoever.  So your hypothesis here is incorrect.

Funny.  You just said a while ago "...but if a compressionist works an extra week to get the best quality...".

How many hours in an extra week?  Is it enough time for the different encoding times (assuming you VC-1 encoder speed is correct)?  Now add how many passes you have to generally do on a VC-1 encode and AVC on BD is the faster.  Let's not even talk about MPEG-2 (it has a lot of great reviews, too).

Quote:
You should be able to see artifacts there although there is no guarantee.  We are talking about low level signals and DILA has a bit of trouble with that.  But more so, you can’t get too close to screen or the image washes out due to screen gain (and the fact that it is rear projection).  With an LCD for example, you get close and see the artifacts so that you know what to look for. 

But here there are some quick examples.  See if you can see them:
• 56:08 – close-up of pirates face while holding gold necklace showing blocking in his hat.
• 57:51 – side view of pirate while petting monkey showing blocking in his hat

Well, I looked at 2 secs worth of video for 15 mins.  I had no such luck.  I guess I must be in that boat with the other 5 major reviewers.  One of the reviewers has the same model TV I do. 


I need to go to sleep.  I will answer the other portion when I have some more free time.

Blah, blah, blah...

sorry 8ballmax, hate to steal your thunder, but this blowhard windbag is seriously getting on my nerves!!!

Quoting Calidain:
Blah, blah, blah...

sorry 8ballmax, hate to steal your thunder, but this blowhard windbag is seriously getting on my nerves!!!

Nope, sorry it's just not the same 
Besides, if you're quoting 8ballmax it's "blah, blah, blah, blah..." 

Quoting Calidain:

Quote:
Blah, blah, blah...

sorry 8ballmax, hate to steal your thunder, but this blowhard windbag is seriously getting on my nerves!!!

That's quite alright. But next time, it's 4 blahs .

Quoting Dr. Killpatient:

Quote:
TL;DR

You guys need to pick a target and debate the hell out of that.  Then move onto the next target.

Great advice.  Come to think of it, I think everyone agrees that A_S is either paid by BDA as part of project hydra to promote their message on internet forums (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=10208851&&#post10208851), or is a devoted/blind fan of BD format.  In neither case, would he be someone who is willing to change his mind about the situation with additional data/arguments. 

So the only reason to have continue the discussion is if anyone else thinks his points have merit in which case, please chime in and I will respond to those points.  Otherwise, I assume he hasn't managed to convince anyone and we can move on....

Quoting amirm:

Quote:
Quoting Dr. Killpatient:

Quote:
TL;DR

You guys need to pick a target and debate the hell out of that.  Then move onto the next target.

Great advice.  Come to think of it, I think everyone agrees that A_S is either paid by BDA as part of project hydra to promote their message on internet forums (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=10208851&&#post10208851), or is a devoted/blind fan of BD format.  In neither case, would he be someone who is willing to change his mind about the situation with additional data/arguments. 

So the only reason to have continue the discussion is if anyone else thinks his points have merit in which case, please chime in and I will respond to those points.  Otherwise, I assume he hasn't managed to convince anyone and we can move on....

This is assuming that he/she is working and not a 15 year old kid. I myself would like to know how old he/she is, what he/she does for a living if he/she does work, and what his/her actual credentials are. Until then he/she is a snot nosed kid who thinks he/she knows it all with nothing but twisted facts to back up his/her rantings.