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    Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Contribution Discussion Page: 1 2 3 ...10  Previous   Next
Debate on 'Common Names'. Opinions wanted.
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DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantItalo_Disco
Registered: June 8, 2007
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Referring to this thread and http://www.invelos.com/Forums.aspx?task=viewtopic&topicID=37108 this thread. (using two links in one post seems not to work !?)

There's some discussion about two actors that I would like an opinion about. I have been using Goodguy's Name Variants report to find similar names in my local database, and I've been updating my profiles and selecting common names to properly link DVDs that have the same actors with different 'credited as' names. For two actors there's now some debate as to which common name would be the proper one.

1) Real name: Robert Zajonc. Credited as: Robert 'Bobby Z' Zajonc, Bobby Z, Robert M. Zajonc, Robert Zajonc and many other variants. IMDB name: Robert 'Bobby Z' Zajonc. In IMDB most often credited as: Robert 'Bobby Z' Zajonc or uncredited.

2) Real name: undetermined. Credited as: Dona Hardy, Donna Hardy. IMDB name: Donna Hardy. In IMDB most credited as Dona Hardy (26 of 48). Other sources, i.e. tv.com, also have more credits for Dona than for Donna.

For both actors I've used IMDB as source to determine the common name, according to the two threads mentioned at the top of this post. However, my contribution has now been challenged because of two reasons. 1) Robert Zajonc is the actor's real name, so that should be the one used as common name and 2) Dona Hardy is more often credited as Donna Hardy and therefor should be used as common name.

So, what to do now ?
 Last edited: by Italo_Disco
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorKevin
Registered March 22, 2001
Registered: March 13, 2007
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First thing, don't use IMDB for anything regarding DVDP.

Second - well, let's let this can of worms spill all by itself....
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantVibroCount
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Registered: March 13, 2007
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For each:

Choose one. Use whatever reason appeals to you.

Then, if the majority (and/or Gerri) determines your choice was incorrect, another possibility will most likely be chosen for all of us.

Simple.
If it wasn't for bad taste, I wouldn't have no taste at all.

Cliff
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorT!M
Profiling since Dec. 2000
Registered: March 13, 2007
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Quoting Italo Disco:
Quote:
Referring to this thread and http://www.invelos.com/Forums.aspx?task=viewtopic&topicID=37108 this thread. (using two links in one post seems not to work !?)

This indeed is some kind of strange bug in the forums...

Quote:
2) Real name: undetermined. Credited as: Dona Hardy, Donna Hardy. IMDB name: Donna Hardy. In IMDB most credited as Dona Hardy (26 of 48). Other sources, i.e. tv.com, also have more credits for Dona than for Donna.

Let's start with this one. My DVD collection boasts 5 appearances by this actress. In four of these, she is credited as Dona Hardy:

- The Cable Guy
- Nurse Betty
- Quantum Leap: Het Complete Tweede Seizoen
- The Truman Show

Only in 'When Harry Met Sally', she's credited as Donna Hardy. This 4:1 ratio prompted me to pick "Dona Hardy" as her common name. Rather than updating the other four credits with "Donna Hardy credited as Dona Hardy", I chose to enter these four simply "as credited", and used the "credited as" feature just for that one 'When Harry Met Sally' credit. Other sources that establish the correct name as Dona Hardy are:

http://www.tcmdb.com/participant/participant.jsp?participantId=81095|0&afiPersonalNameId=null

http://ftvdb.bfi.org.uk/sift/individual/633553

Italo Disco is right in that IMDb went with Donna Hardy. I'm certain, though, that some of those credits are wrong. There's certainly one I've just re-checked: IMDb says she's credited as "Donna Hardy" in 'Quantum Leap', but she's not, she's credited as "Dona Hardy". If there are a couple more of these mistakes, even IMDb's balance will begin tipping towards using Dona Hardy. I do not have all those other titles in hand, so I cannot check them. Therefore, I can only base my choice on my own discs. The 4:1 ratio that I encountered, along with the tcmdb.com and bfi.org.uk results, made me go with Dona Hardy.
 Last edited: by T!M
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorKevin
Registered March 22, 2001
Registered: March 13, 2007
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But Tim, aren't you just as guilty of using third-party sites - that are not in no way official - for this information? Who has determined the validity?
DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantStar Contributorhal9g
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Registered: March 13, 2007
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Quoting Kevin:
Quote:
First thing, don't use IMDB for anything regarding DVDP.



It is perfectly legitimate to use IMDb as a research tool for this kind of thing, however, neither it, nor any other source, should be relied on alone.
Hal
 Last edited: by hal9g
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorWinston Smith
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Registered: March 13, 2007
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Quoting Italo Disco:
Quote:
Referring to this thread and http://www.invelos.com/Forums.aspx?task=viewtopic&topicID=37108 this thread. (using two links in one post seems not to work !?)

There's some discussion about two actors that I would like an opinion about. I have been using Goodguy's Name Variants report to find similar names in my local database, and I've been updating my profiles and selecting common names to properly link DVDs that have the same actors with different 'credited as' names. For two actors there's now some debate as to which common name would be the proper one.

1) Real name: Robert Zajonc. Credited as: Robert 'Bobby Z' Zajonc, Bobby Z, Robert M. Zajonc, Robert Zajonc and many other variants. IMDB name: Robert 'Bobby Z' Zajonc. In IMDB most often credited as: Robert 'Bobby Z' Zajonc or uncredited.

2) Real name: undetermined. Credited as: Dona Hardy, Donna Hardy. IMDB name: Donna Hardy. In IMDB most credited as Dona Hardy (26 of 48). Other sources, i.e. tv.com, also have more credits for Dona than for Donna.

For both actors I've used IMDB as source to determine the common name, according to the two threads mentioned at the top of this post. However, my contribution has now been challenged because of two reasons. 1) Robert Zajonc is the actor's real name, so that should be the one used as common name and 2) Dona Hardy is more often credited as Donna Hardy and therefor should be used as common name.

So, what to do now ?


Italo:

How do YOU know that Dona Hardy=Donna Hardy, same is true of all the possibilities for Zajonc. Have you done anything such as comparative screen caps to be certain that you are not dealing with different people using similar names. I suspect you have not. Tim, you have even told me that you aren't willing to go to the trouble of doing screen caps for comparison, do it right or not at all. I want accurate links, good enough is NOT good enough. And as Kevin noted we do not use third party sites, and if you wnat to do that you had better provide more than one.

Skip
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Billy Video
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantItalo_Disco
Registered: June 8, 2007
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Quoting Kevin:
Quote:
But Tim, aren't you just as guilty of using third-party sites - that are not in no way official - for this information? Who has determined the validity?

When it comes to determining common names, what else but third-party sites do you have ? I don't have any books that list common names here, so the only thing to do is search the web and see if I can find some sort of evidence that would tip the scale one way or the other. Most frequently, IMDB is one of the sources of that evidence, and I really don't see anything wrong with that.

Mind you, I'm not propagating to use third-party sites as *the* source for updates, far from it. But when it comes to reaching a decision on something that would else remain undetermined there's only one way to do it, and that is to use third-party sites.
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorT!M
Profiling since Dec. 2000
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Quoting Italo Disco:
Quote:
1) Real name: Robert Zajonc. Credited as: Robert 'Bobby Z' Zajonc, Bobby Z, Robert M. Zajonc, Robert Zajonc and many other variants. IMDB name: Robert 'Bobby Z' Zajonc. In IMDB most often credited as: Robert 'Bobby Z' Zajonc or uncredited.

As for this one, Robert 'Bobby Z' Zajonc really strikes me as an IMDb-name - even if it's only based on the fact that they tend to use single quotation marks for the nickname, while film credits mostly would use double quotation marks (i.e. "Bobby Z" instead of 'Bobby Z'). This is again just a gut feeling: we all agree that Robert Zajonc is his real name, and that he is sometimes credited with a nickname. Way back in all the "common name" debates, someone once proposed to leave all nicknames out of "common names" - and I saw the merit in that. Simply because such a person is bound to be credited both with and without the nickname from time to time. Rather than having do decide for each actor/crew member whether his common name should include that nickname, which seems rather cumbersome, I see great merits in a general decision not to use nicknames in "common names" at all. If we could agree on that, that would solve a large number of debates in advance.

In my own collection, I have only one acting credit for him, and that is in 'The Cable Guy', in which he is simply credited as Robert Zajonc. So that's what I entered into the profile - I entered his name simply "as credited" on-screen. If we can't agree about leaving nicknames out generally, and if he's actually mostly credited as Robert 'Bobby Z' Zajonc, I'm perfectly willing to accept that. But are we sure about the single quotation marks? There really do ring IMDb to me...
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantItalo_Disco
Registered: June 8, 2007
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Quoting skipnet50:
Quote:
How do YOU know that Dona Hardy=Donna Hardy, same is true of all the possibilities for Zajonc. Have you done anything such as comparative screen caps to be certain that you are not dealing with different people using similar names. I suspect you have not.


True. I'm not that paranoid. Several sites list Dona and Donna Hardy as aliases of the same actress, the same goes for Zajonc. I have no reason to believe they are all mistaken. In these cases I think it's fine to simply trust the information someone else has put up.
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorTracer
Registered: March 13, 2007
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Quoting Italo Disco:
Quote:

1) Robert Zajonc is the actor's real name, so that should be the one used as common name and
2) Dona Hardy is more often credited as Donna Hardy and therefor should be used as common name.

So, what to do now ?


1) Not really, I would still go with what he is most commonly credited as name. Real names only work if all contributors know the persons real name.  If you can not determine a commonly credited as name, then I wouldn't make an online common name contribution as it most likely will change when Ken comes out with his tool to look at an actors most commonly credited as name in the DVD Profiler DB.

2) If Dona Hardy is the most commonly credited as name that is what I would use.  IMDB has it's own formula for what they use for the common name and it has nothing to do with most commonly credited as name.

Before making any common name contribution, I would verify the profile against the cast and crew credits.  Many times I've seen a profile that has someone like Donna Hardy but, the credits actually show Dona Hardy.  In these cases most likely the original contributor took the data from a third party data base instead of using the credits.
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 Last edited: by Tracer
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorT!M
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Quoting Kevin:
Quote:
But Tim, aren't you just as guilty of using third-party sites - that are not in no way official - for this information? Who has determined the validity?

I quoted a couple of outside sources AS A REFERENCE, which IS allowed. Those could also include IMDb - just not on "Dona Hardy", as I feel they've made the wrong decision on this one. Again: I'm not saying: "these sources decide that the correct common name is XXX" - I'm basing that on the four to one ratio in my own collection. Apart from checking alle the credits that I CAN check, I do a Google search, and I check a number of online movie databases like the ones I indicated. If they came to the same conclusion I did, that makes me feel stronger about my decision. I use them as a reference, not as a source. Like Hal said:

Quoting hal9g:
Quote:
It is perfectly legitimate to use IMDb as a research tool for this kind of thing, however, neither it, nor any other source, should be relied on alone.
 Last edited: by T!M
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorWinston Smith
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Registered: March 13, 2007
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Italo:

As I outlined, you have to determiene hat Dona Hardy and Donna Hardy are the same person, NOT just two people with a similar names. It sems the best way to do that is via doing a comparative Screen Cap. Now once you have done something along those lines, you can think bout a link, as I have said many many times, while I MIGHT USE imdB AS one REFERENCE piece, I will NEVER use them as my sole source reference source, if they are the only source I can locate, then there is no source. After two years of editing Profiles I have learned that IMDb is the single most inaccurate source of information that there is, followed closely by Wikipedia. Ideally the person has his/her own website, which may prove useful and might even eliminate the nedd for screen shots...but that not going to be generally true.

Skip
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Billy Video
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorGSyren
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I agree with Skip.

If I find that a film has a credit for "John M. Doe" and there is a "John Doe" in the database, how do I know that they are the same person. Middle initials are often used for the specific reason of differentiating between different actors (like Michael Fox and Michael J. Fox).

Or, supposing the credit reads "Johnny Doe" and there's a "John Doe" and a "John M. Doe" in the database. How do I know I pick the correct common name? Or even that either of them is correct?

The risks for creating false linkings seem obvious to me.
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DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantStar Contributorhal9g
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Quoting skipnet50:
Quote:

Italo:

How do YOU know that Dona Hardy=Donna Hardy, same is true of all the possibilities for Zajonc. Have you done anything such as comparative screen caps to be certain that you are not dealing with different people using similar names. I suspect you have not. Tim, you have even told me that you aren't willing to go to the trouble of doing screen caps for comparison, do it right or not at all. I want accurate links, good enough is NOT good enough. And as Kevin noted we do not use third party sites, and if you wnat to do that you had better provide more than one.

Skip


It seems to me that an "official" filmography can be used to establish that they are the same person, without having to do screen captures.
Hal
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Quoting hal9g:
Quote:
Quoting Kevin:
Quote:
First thing, don't use IMDB for anything regarding DVDP.



It is perfectly legitimate to use IMDb as a research tool for this kind of thing, however, neither it, nor any other source, should be relied on alone.


Exactly it and other sites can be used as a research tool but, IMDB alone should not be used.
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