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Original songs
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DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorGSyren
Profiling since 2001
Registered: March 14, 2007
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I'm currently profiling all the films in the Al Adamson boxset. One of them is Smashing The Crime Syndicate from 1968. It has original songs. No problem there.

The film didn't do well, so two years later Adamson shot new footage with a biker gang and recut the movie, calling it Hell's Bloody Devils. It has the same songs. But ... are they still original songs?
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Gunnar
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorAndyEN
Registered: May 25, 2007
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I'm inclined to say yes, especially if they more or less correspond to the same scene in the original version. Before i vote though, are there any original songs in the later cut that aren't in the first cut? That would blur the line further. For situations like these and for "clips" movies (where scenes are taken from other movies, songs and all) we could probably use a category called Archive Footage Songs or something to that effect, signifying that the song isn't new per se, but it was new as originally used in that scene.
 Last edited: by AndyEN
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorGSyren
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I haven't watched the movies, just the credit sequences, but I would think that they are in the same scenes. And there are no other songs credited in the second movie.
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Gunnar
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar Contributorscotthm
Registered: March 20, 2007
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Quoting GSyren:
Quote:
But ... are they still original songs?

Is it still the same movie?

Would you enter this film in the database as:

Title:  Hell's Bloody Devils
Original Title: Smashing the Crime Syndicate

If not, then they are not original songs.

---------------
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorGSyren
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Well, with the new scenes turning it into a biker movie, I wouldn't say that it's the same movie.
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Gunnar
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorGSyren
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Consensus - it's such a wonderful thing. But so elusive ... 
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Gunnar
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorAndyEN
Registered: May 25, 2007
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Complicating things further, the imdb treats the two movies as the same, so it might even be hard to get consensus from people familiar with the movies on if they're the same or not. Most sources online claim that Smashing the Crime Syndicate wasn't released until 1970. Is it possible that it never even managed to get a release at all until it was reworked as Hell's Bloody Devils? If in the days before home video, HBD was the only actual theatrical release, that would almost for sure make them original songs.
 Last edited: by AndyEN
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorGSyren
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Trying to keep track of Adamson's titles, releases, rereleases, releasedates etc. is tricky.
But what seems clear is that Smashing the Crime Syndicate (aka The Fakers) was produced in 1968, and the additional scenes were shot in 1969 and the movie was reedited with those scenes and released as Hell's Bloody Devils in 1970.

Was Smashing ever released theatrically? Maybe not. But does it matter? The boxset contains both movies. Can the same songs be original in both of them?
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Gunnar
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorAndyEN
Registered: May 25, 2007
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Quoting GSyren:
Quote:

Was Smashing ever released theatrically? Maybe not. But does it matter? The boxset contains both movies. Can the same songs be original in both of them?


I'd say in matters in the sense that if the earlier version was not released until years later, then the newer version would be the first time the songs were released to the public, which to me would make them original songs.
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorGSyren
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Quoting AndyEN:
Quote:
I'd say in matters in the sense that if the earlier version was not released until years later, then the newer version would be the first time the songs were released to the public, which to me would make them original songs.

Well, the rules don't seem to make that distinction. They say:
Quote:
Original Songs, written specifically for the film

It's hard to dispute that the songs were in fact written for Smashing the Syndicate. So I don't buy that they should not be considered originals for that movie. But are they original for Hell's Bloody Devils as well?
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Gunnar
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorObiKen
Registered: October 22, 2015
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Sorry to throw this spanner into the works.

Look at the BBFC link for "Smashing the Crime Syndicate":
https://www.bbfc.co.uk/releases/smashing-crime-syndicate

It shows the film was classified in 1974 for the UK release by Ember Films, that's four years after "Hell's Bloody Devils" release in the US.

I always thought that "Operation M" was the working title and "The Faker$" was the unreleased original title of the finished film before it was shelved (because they could not find a distributor). The 1968 copyright was for this film and should not be construed as a release date.

In 1970, Al Adamson and partners formed there own distribution company called "Independent-International Pictures Corporation", and following the success of the first film distributed, "Satan's Sadists", they began to look at some of their shelved/unfinished films.  "Hell's Bloody Devils" was created by deleting scenes and adding biker gang scenes to their shelved "The Faker$" film, ostensibly for the drive-in market.

My thinking is the film was produced by an American film company, so original title (as per DVDP rules) is the one used in the country of origin, namely, "Hell's Bloody Devils".

As "Hell's Bloody Devils" was the first released version of the film, any original song credits are valid for that film.

Any other subsequent released version I would consider to be a different cut of the original version ("Hell's Bloody Devils"), so including the original song writing credits would be valid as long as you had:

Title:  Smashing the Crime Syndicate/The Faker$
Original Title: Hell's Bloody Devils


Just my thoughts on how to solve the convoluted filmography of Al Adamson.
 Last edited: by ObiKen
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorGSyren
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Well, whatever the title of the film that was produced in 1968, the songs were written for that film. It may not have been released until after Hell's Bloody Devils, but the rules do not specify that the first released is the original.
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Gunnar
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorObiKen
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Sorry, but that film was released as Hell's Bloody Devils, it utilised the same original camera negative, just with some modifications.
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorGSyren
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Both movies exist. They are both in the Al Adamson box. The songs are in the 1968 movie and in 1970 movie. Nobody can convince me that they should be considered original songs for the 1970 movie but not for the 1968 movie. When and how they were released is not important, there is nothing in the rules about that.

But I guess I'll take the easy way out. I'll leave them out of both movies.
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Gunnar
 Last edited: by GSyren
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorNexus the Sixth
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I don't see this differently than any other recut, edited cut, extended cut, director's cut etc released after the original cut, sometimes with added footage that was filmed later. The film title has changed but that's the only difference, it's still versions of the same movie imho.

(One could maybe argue that if more than 50% of the film was reshot then it's a different movie but that doesn't seem to be the case here.)
First registered: February 15, 2002
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorGSyren
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Quoting iPatsa:
Quote:
I don't see this differently than any other recut, edited cut, extended cut, director's cut etc released after the original cut, sometimes with added footage that was filmed later. The film title has changed but that's the only difference, it's still versions of the same movie imho.

(One could maybe argue that if more than 50% of the film was reshot then it's a different movie but that doesn't seem to be the case here.)

Be that as it may, but that doesn't really answer the question. I take it that you mean the songs should be credited in both versions?
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Gunnar
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