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| Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation:  |  Posts: 17,310 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Giga Wizard: Quote:
Quoting Addicted2DVD:
Quote:
Actually... it is... in the introduction section of the rules...
Rules Quote:
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The authoritative source for information submitted should be the DVD itself. Please don't make a correction to an existing profile based on the content of a third party database or the specifications printed on the cover. In both cases, errors abound, so always verify the information directly from the DVD whenever possible.
this would not apply to new profiles? (don't make a correction to an existing profile based on the content of a third party database) yes... it does say existing... and that would apply to every profile once it is submitted for the first time. I personally don't feel that is written correctly... as in my opinion it should say at all... but it is still in the rules not to use them... it was said in a general statement that it wasn't in the rules... when it is... even if it is limited to all profiles already in the database. | | | | Pete |
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| Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 2,694 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting RAPMAN: Quote:
I used the source only for the year of production. I could also use www.ofdb.de for such info. There should be a list with sources not to use. That would make it easier to avoid this problem. Basically ANY source that licenses the IMDB database. They are required to post that, so look for it before using any third party site. You'll find that most of them use data from IMDB. | | | John
"Extremism in the defense of Liberty is no vice!" Senator Barry Goldwater, 1964
Make America Great Again! |
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| Registered: March 20, 2007 |  Posts: 330 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Ken Cole: Quote:
The requirement for naming the source is not designed to allow Invelos plausible deniability. If the submitted data came from the IMDB or another source, we need to know that so we may properly decline the submission. Falsely stating the source of data in an attempt to bypass this will result in an immediate and permanent ban from contributing. I've got a problem of understanding here - maybe because English isn't my native language. Does this mean that practically most sources on the internet are not alllowed because it could be that the owner of the particular site ripped IMDB data himself? Most of the data can be grabbed from the credits or the DVD itself but what about films where no role names are associated to the actors? The contribution rules say here "If an actor is credited by name but does not have an associated role, you may use another source to identify the role." But how do I know if the source I found by searching the internet is a valid source or not? Especially because in a lot of cases it's likely that the information itself will be the same as it's stated in the IMDB ... I think this could be a problem, because websites are the only source that you can prove. It's quite useless for you if I refer to a book or maybe the movie itself because you might not have the book or the time to watch through the movie yourself. So how should this point be handled? |
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| Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 17,310 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Red_Shadow: Quote:
Quoting Ken Cole:
Quote:
The requirement for naming the source is not designed to allow Invelos plausible deniability. If the submitted data came from the IMDB or another source, we need to know that so we may properly decline the submission. Falsely stating the source of data in an attempt to bypass this will result in an immediate and permanent ban from contributing.
I've got a problem of understanding here - maybe because English isn't my native language. Does this mean that practically most sources on the internet are not alllowed because it could be that the owner of the particular site ripped IMDB data himself? basically... yes... the cast/crew should be only from the credits Quote:
Most of the data can be grabbed from the credits or the DVD itself but what about films where no role names are associated to the actors? The contribution rules say here "If an actor is credited by name but does not have an associated role, you may use another source to identify the role." But how do I know if the source I found by searching the internet is a valid source or not? Especially because in a lot of cases it's likely that the information itself will be the same as it's stated in the IMDB ... There is an exception for role names that are not in the credits... see this rule... Quote:
If an actor is credited by name but does not have an associated role, you may use another source to identify the role. In each case, list Actor’s names and roles (when given) exactly as they are in the credits and in exactly the same order credited. I would still not use something like imdb... this is seen mostly in TV Shows and older movies. For TV Shows I personally like to use official websites (For current shows) I don;t usually do profiles for classic movies... so no suggestion on what to use there. Quote:
I think this could be a problem, because websites are the only source that you can prove. It's quite useless for you if I refer to a book or maybe the movie itself because you might not have the book or the time to watch through the movie yourself.
So how should this point be handled? | | | | Pete |
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| Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation:  |  Posts: 2,293 |
| | Posted: | | | | The only "3rd party" info I tend to use is the BBFC which is the licencing body for certification in the UK and is thus a public body and the 'creating' source for this info, not a database built up from elsewhere... so really a "2nd party" source.
epguides.com I find useful to check air dates where I believe they differ from the copyright date... it's rather difficult otherwise to get this data and the Rules, though they say no 3rd party, also say to use air/release date, not copyright date (and whether this is right is a whole other thread... or group of threads judging by history!) | | | | It is dangerous to be right in matters where established men are wrong |
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| Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 2,293 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Red_Shadow: Quote:
I think this could be a problem, because websites are the only source that you can prove. It's quite useless for you if I refer to a book or maybe the movie itself because you might not have the book or the time to watch through the movie yourself.
So how should this point be handled? If you don't have the right sources then someone else will have to do it. | | | | It is dangerous to be right in matters where established men are wrong |
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| Registered: March 14, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 1,022 |
| | Posted: | | | | Back on CoO's  just to advise again John's link which is a very good 'double check' for a source - www.tcmdb.com | | |  |
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| Registered: March 14, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 1,022 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Voltaire53: Quote:
This seems a suitable time to ask one i've been wondering about (since it's also not in the rules).
Is it permitted to give source (for an R2 release for example) as "Credits from R1 release which came out 3 months ago"?
Maybe with the caveat "R1 disc contribution notes state all credits taken from screen" or "R1 in database unchanged for 6 months"?
I know very occasionally with very old or foreign films the credits are re-made but in 99.9% of cases for English language releases it seems a huge waste to replicate the work in each locality.
Opinions? Guidance from Ken? This is a very good point. Just for an imaginary example, a series of 24, on region 1 someone has spent the time verifying the cast and crew, used the dividers etc etc, and 40 people or so vote yes on it. Wouldn't it be prudent to be able to use this confirmed data rather than invent the wheel again?, and quote that in the notes as your source? RR | | | |
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| Registered: March 14, 2007 | | Reputation: |  Posts: 820 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting richierich: Quote:
Quoting Voltaire53:
Quote:
This seems a suitable time to ask one i've been wondering about (since it's also not in the rules).
Is it permitted to give source (for an R2 release for example) as "Credits from R1 release which came out 3 months ago"?
Maybe with the caveat "R1 disc contribution notes state all credits taken from screen" or "R1 in database unchanged for 6 months"?
I know very occasionally with very old or foreign films the credits are re-made but in 99.9% of cases for English language releases it seems a huge waste to replicate the work in each locality.
Opinions? Guidance from Ken?
This is a very good point.
Just for an imaginary example, a series of 24, on region 1 someone has spent the time verifying the cast and crew, used the dividers etc etc, and 40 people or so vote yes on it.
Wouldn't it be prudent to be able to use this confirmed data rather than invent the wheel again?, and quote that in the notes as your source?
RR Seems logical to me. I think that the prudent thing to do from now on is quote the UPC that you are copying the data from and contribution notes, if any, as one of your sources. Whilst I understand the desirability of the approach suggested by Ken (Quoting sources for everything), it is going to slow the rate of contributions in my region (Region 4) considerably. We are a relatively small region with few contributors. I can't keep up as it is. I don't have a lot of time to spend doing contributions. I have made an extra effort with the move to version 3 to try to get things up to date. The reality is going to be that if it gets too difficult, I will just update my local database and keep it there. I am not trying to be insulting when I say this but Americans need to understand that not every country has hundreds of millions of inhabitants (Thank Goodness). My personal point of view, even though it doesn't affect me, is that it is rather unfair and limiting to suggest that everyone has to submit contribution notes in English. Why not appoint Regional screeners from the user base to manage contributions as has been suggested for forum moderators. (The sooner we get these the better as far as I am concerned). |
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| Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 2,293 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting richierich: Quote:
Just for an imaginary example, a series of 24, on region 1 someone has spent the time verifying the cast and crew, used the dividers etc etc, and 40 people or so vote yes on it.
This was the sort of data I was actually thinking of when I wrote this as the conversion to episode by episode makes it even more appropriate rather than doing it in each region separately. FWIW I had a recent contribution No voted because I'd said I'd used the R1 as source and the comment said this wasn't allowed so i thought I'd ask for guidance! | | | | It is dangerous to be right in matters where established men are wrong |
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| Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 17,310 |
| | Posted: | | | | We really would need to hear from Ken on this one... but in my opinion... if you are going to contribute to the main database... it should be verified by you... as I said.. I would download and use it... but I would still insist on verifying the data. That is my opinion on the matter at least. | | | | Pete |
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 | Dan W | | Registered: May 9, 2002 |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 980 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Red_Shadow: Quote:
Quoting Ken Cole:
Quote:
The requirement for naming the source is not designed to allow Invelos plausible deniability. If the submitted data came from the IMDB or another source, we need to know that so we may properly decline the submission. Falsely stating the source of data in an attempt to bypass this will result in an immediate and permanent ban from contributing.
I've got a problem of understanding here - maybe because English isn't my native language. Does this mean that practically most sources on the internet are not alllowed because it could be that the owner of the particular site ripped IMDB data himself?
Most of the data can be grabbed from the credits or the DVD itself but what about films where no role names are associated to the actors? The contribution rules say here "If an actor is credited by name but does not have an associated role, you may use another source to identify the role." But how do I know if the source I found by searching the internet is a valid source or not? Especially because in a lot of cases it's likely that the information itself will be the same as it's stated in the IMDB ...
I think this could be a problem, because websites are the only source that you can prove. It's quite useless for you if I refer to a book or maybe the movie itself because you might not have the book or the time to watch through the movie yourself.
So how should this point be handled? I think the best thing is to follow the rules: do not contribute any data from a third-party source. This leaves us with our personal knowledge and a few "official websites". If you know them, then enter what you know. Those you don't know, enter what is given and leave it for someone else to "complete". | | | | Dan |
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| Registered: March 14, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 820 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Dan W: Quote:
Quoting Red_Shadow:
Quote:
Quoting Ken Cole:
Quote:
The requirement for naming the source is not designed to allow Invelos plausible deniability. If the submitted data came from the IMDB or another source, we need to know that so we may properly decline the submission. Falsely stating the source of data in an attempt to bypass this will result in an immediate and permanent ban from contributing.
I've got a problem of understanding here - maybe because English isn't my native language. Does this mean that practically most sources on the internet are not alllowed because it could be that the owner of the particular site ripped IMDB data himself?
Most of the data can be grabbed from the credits or the DVD itself but what about films where no role names are associated to the actors? The contribution rules say here "If an actor is credited by name but does not have an associated role, you may use another source to identify the role." But how do I know if the source I found by searching the internet is a valid source or not? Especially because in a lot of cases it's likely that the information itself will be the same as it's stated in the IMDB ...
I think this could be a problem, because websites are the only source that you can prove. It's quite useless for you if I refer to a book or maybe the movie itself because you might not have the book or the time to watch through the movie yourself.
So how should this point be handled?
I think the best thing is to follow the rules: do not contribute any data from a third-party source. This leaves us with our personal knowledge and a few "official websites". If you know them, then enter what you know. Those you don't know, enter what is given and leave it for someone else to "complete". What about books? If I quote a book as a source, how is that going to be received? There are fair dealing laws in Australia and most countries that permit the use of small amounts of copyrighted material for varous purposes. Do I have to comply with US Copyright law because the DB is hosted in the US? What if I quote from a book that is no longer protected by copyright? | | | | Last edited: by Telecine |
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| Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 2,694 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Red_Shadow: Quote:
Quoting Ken Cole:
Quote:
The requirement for naming the source is not designed to allow Invelos plausible deniability. If the submitted data came from the IMDB or another source, we need to know that so we may properly decline the submission. Falsely stating the source of data in an attempt to bypass this will result in an immediate and permanent ban from contributing.
I've got a problem of understanding here - maybe because English isn't my native language. Does this mean that practically most sources on the internet are not alllowed because it could be that the owner of the particular site ripped IMDB data himself?
Most of the data can be grabbed from the credits or the DVD itself but what about films where no role names are associated to the actors? The contribution rules say here "If an actor is credited by name but does not have an associated role, you may use another source to identify the role." But how do I know if the source I found by searching the internet is a valid source or not? Especially because in a lot of cases it's likely that the information itself will be the same as it's stated in the IMDB ...
I think this could be a problem, because websites are the only source that you can prove. It's quite useless for you if I refer to a book or maybe the movie itself because you might not have the book or the time to watch through the movie yourself.
So how should this point be handled? If you're looking for role names for actors, one of the best places is TCMDB.com. Turner Classic Movies is not affiliated with IMDB, and I have found their stuff to be dead on accurate - so far. Plus, Turner Broadcasting owns a huge chunk of the older films in existence, so they are often the only source for many of these older movies. Whenever possible, however, the best way to get the role name is to watch the movie/episodes in question and pick up the names that way. Use the database as a backup. | | | John
"Extremism in the defense of Liberty is no vice!" Senator Barry Goldwater, 1964
Make America Great Again! |
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| Dan W | | Registered: May 9, 2002 |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 980 |
| | Posted: | | | | I don't see using a book as a problem as long as it's by a reasonable authority.
I mean, the fact that Johnny Walkabout wrote a book doesn't necessarily make him a good source. | | | | Dan | | | | Last edited: by Dan W |
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| Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 2,694 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Addicted2DVD: Quote:
We really would need to hear from Ken on this one... but in my opinion... if you are going to contribute to the main database... it should be verified by you... as I said.. I would download and use it... but I would still insist on verifying the data. That is my opinion on the matter at least. I was just going to say the same thing. If you use the data from R1 for example, for the R2 version, you should still verify that the data is correct for YOUR region. | | | John
"Extremism in the defense of Liberty is no vice!" Senator Barry Goldwater, 1964
Make America Great Again! |
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