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    Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Contribution Discussion Page: 1 2 3 ...7  Previous   Next
composer/song writer confusion
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DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorT!M
Profiling since Dec. 2000
Registered: March 13, 2007
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I'm having a disagreement with a user - guess who? - and I'd like to know how the rest of the community feels about this. I'll start with supplying two screenshots.

From the opening credits:


From the closing credits:


The current profile gives both John Cacavas and Mike Post equal "composer" credits, which I feel is wrong: it's obvious that Mike Post had nothing to do with scoring the movie, he just supplied the 'Mystery Movie Theme'. I'd call the 'Mystery Movie Theme' a "song", and I feel that Mike Post is entitled to a "song writer" credit on this, but certainly not a "composer" credit, as that would indicate that he scored the movie together with Jon Cacavas, which he certainly didn't.

Unfortunately Skip is willing to throw all of that out the window because the 'Mystery Movie Theme' song doesn't have lyrics, and as such, doesn't match his definition of a "song". That may very well be - I don't want to argue semantics - but I really don't think that was the intent behind how we handle our music credits. Whether you call the 'Mystery Movie Theme' a "song" or not, the fact of the matter is that Mike Post did NOT score the movie; he just supplied a single 'theme' (or 'theme song', if you will) that plays over the credits. I couldn't care less if that 'theme' has lyrics or not - either way, Mike Post only contributed that single 'theme'. Regardless of endless arguments about what constitutes a "song", I just can't help feeling that Mike Post doesn't deserve a joint "composer" credit on this. Just the fact that he's not credited together with (actual) composer John Cacavas in the opening credits gives me a clear indication of that.

Am I right or am I wrong? If you want to look at the actual contribution this is about, check out UPC 025193-327222.
 Last edited: by T!M
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorWinston Smith
Don't be discommodious
Registered: March 13, 2007
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From Merriam Webster Distionary

Main Entry: song
Pronunciation: 'so[ng]
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Old English sang; akin to Old English singan to sing
1 : the act or art of singing
2 : poetical composition
3 a : a short musical composition of words and music b : a collection of such compositions
4 : a distinctive or characteristic sound or series of sounds (as of a bird, insect, or whale)
5 a : a melody for a lyric poem or ballad b : a poem easily set to music
6 a : a habitual or characteristic manner b : a violent, abusive, or noisy reaction <put up quite a song>
7 : a small amount <sold for a song>

There are no words for any piece of music in the Columbo series. It is NOT my definition of a Song, it is what cmakes up. A musical composition or piece of Muisc is simply that a composition which is writtenn by a COMPOSER, I am not the one trying to apply a totally inappropriate definiton to this.

Skip
ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here

Billy Video
 Last edited: by Winston Smith
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorT!M
Profiling since Dec. 2000
Registered: March 13, 2007
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Quoting skipnet50:
Quote:
From Merriam Webster Distionary

As I said: that may very well be. My point is that Mike Post did NOT score the movie. Giving him a joint "composer" credit together with the person that DID score the movie is:

a) a complete misrepresentation of the truth (John Cacavas and Mike Post did NOT jointly provide the score; John Cacavas did, and Mike Post's only contribution was a single 'theme' playing over the credits.

b) a complete misrepresentation of the credits (Mike Post is NOT credited as composer together with John Cacavas in the opening credits, but instead gets a seperate credit in the end credits).

Regardless of your definition of a "song", I feel that giving both joint "composer" credits is both wrong and confusing. Mike Post composed a LOT of TV-Themes over the years: I want DVD Profiler to reflect when he actually scored a movie or TV episode, and when he's only credited for the use of his theme song. If we list both contributions as "composer", then we lose that distinction completely. I don't see why you'd want to do that...
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorT!M
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To elaborate even further... The credit now says:

Mystery Movie Theme by
Mike Post

Because there are no lyrics, you feel that qualifies Mike Post for a "composer" credit. Now, imagine there WERE some lyrics (I'm trying to come up with a catchy chorus with the words "just more thing" in it, but no luck yet), and the credit would have been:

Mystery Movie Theme:
composed by Mike Post
lyrics by Peter Falk

Then you'd give both "song writer" credits? I don't understand the distinction at all: Mike Post's role would be basically the same: he composed the 'Mystery Movie Theme'. The fact that someone else wrote some lyrics to go with that, would impact your perception of his role, too? He'd now qualify as a "song writer", instead of as a "composer"? I really don't get that.

Again: even if we'd agree that listing him as a "song writer" may not be perfect, it's still a hell of lot better than listing him as a composer, because that gives the impression that he actually scored the movie together with John Cacavas - and he didn't.
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorWinston Smith
Don't be discommodious
Registered: March 13, 2007
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Your twisting only totally muddies the water Mike Post and Pete Carpenter wrote the Theme SONG for The Greatest American, Beethoven's 5th is NOT a Song. The theme music in whatever form Composition or Actual Song is linked to the show and identifies the show. it's is not Mission Impossible without Lalo Schifrin's Theme Music, it is also NOT The Greatest American Hero with Mike and Pete's Theme SONG.

Skip
ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here

Billy Video
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorWinston Smith
Don't be discommodious
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Note that the definiton, Tim says words AND Music. So in example PeteFalk and Mike Post would be Song Writers just as Post and carpenter are Song WRITERS for American Hero.

Skip
ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here

Billy Video
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorNexus the Sixth
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So Monty Norman is a composer for all the Bond films? I think not...
First registered: February 15, 2002
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorT!M
Profiling since Dec. 2000
Registered: March 13, 2007
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Quoting skipnet50:
Quote:
Your twisting only totally muddies the water Mike Post and Pete Carpenter wrote the Theme SONG for The Greatest American, Beethoven's 5th is NOT a Song. The theme music in whatever form Composition or Actual Song is linked to the show and identifies the show. it's is not Mission Impossible without Lalo Schifrin's Theme Music, it is also NOT The Greatest American Hero with Mike and Pete's Theme SONG.

Skip

There's no twisting at all: I'd handle the tv-shows 'The Greatest American Hero' and 'Mission: Impossible' in the exact same manner. For 'The Greatest American Hero', the situation is basically as I described in my previous (hypothetical) post: Mike Post composed the 'theme song', while Stephen Geyer wrote the lyrics. So I'd list them both as "song writers". You see the difference? Mike Post composes a theme which remains without lyrics, and you consider him a "composer". Suddenly, someone adds some lyrics (as with 'The Greatest American Hero'), and you consider him a "song writer". Again: I want to credit the person responsible for scoring the movie or TV episode with "composer", and I want to credit the person who wrote the 'theme' with "song writer". And that's not just about our definition of "song writer", it's about the fact that the person who wrote the 'theme' didn't score the movie/episode.

Same for 'Mission: Impossible': Lalo Schifrin wrote the theme, but the episodes themselves were scored by various composers. I want to credit the person that provided the score as a "composer", and the person that wrote the theme as a "song writer". It's the same if you'll look at profiles around the world for the 'Mission: Impossible' movies. The score for the motion picture 'Mission: Impossible" is done by Danny Elfman, but Lalo Schifrin still gets a credit for the theme song. In this case again, you'd award both a joint "composer" credit? I really don't see the point - it again misrepresents both the truth and the credits.
 Last edited: by T!M
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorWinston Smith
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It is certainly NOT a SONG, Patsa. Bond has a variety of SONG WRITERS but NONE of them are Monty Norman.

Skip
ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
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Outta here

Billy Video
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorT!M
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Quoting Patsa:
Quote:
So Monty Norman is a composer for all the Bond films? I think not...

Thank you! That seems to be exactly what Skip proposes. I am, however, fairly certain that most Bond profiles throughout the various localities tend to list Monty Norman as a"song writer", not as a "composer" (except on 'Dr. No', of course), even though the 'James Bond Theme' has no lyrics...
 Last edited: by T!M
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorWinston Smith
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You are twisting, Tim because you are muddying the line between a Song and a piece of Music which contains NO words. It can get a little complex, in that SOMETIMES a musical composition has words put to it, for example Nino Rota's Love Theme from the Godfather, which LATER (not for the movie) had words written for it by Andy Williams. But a Musical Composition is written by a COMPOSER. By your definition Tchaikovsky's 1912 Overture could be classed as a Song, in fact by your definition we do not even need Composer because everything would be a Song.

Tim I will concede that the Rules need some calrification, but you can't make a Musical Composition a Song it simply doesn't fit the definition.

Skip
ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here

Billy Video
 Last edited: by Winston Smith
DVD Profiler Unlimited Registrantnuoyaxin
prev. known as ya_shin
Registered: March 13, 2007
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I don't think a Song must definitely have lyrics (and the Merriam Webster definition 4 seems to support that).


However, this is a fundamental question about something that is currently not covered by the rules. Sometimes for movies, almost very often for TV Series there is a Theme (Song) which plays over the credits and is composed by someone who did not score the music of the feature/episode.

I think this needs to be added to the Rules somehow, how we credit these people, or even better, a field for Theme could be added to the Music section of the Crew. The latter would also help to keep things consistent, otherwise some of these would be added to Crew as Song Writer others as Composers.

Lacking an entry in the Rules, this issue is currently handled very inconsistent, sometimes even within a series.
Achim [諾亞信; Ya-Shin//Nuo], a German in Taiwan.
Registered: May 29, 2000 (at InterVocative)
DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantStar ContributorJykke
Registered: March 13, 2007
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This is getting again 20+ pages argument.

Since theme music composers do not currently fit in the rules definitions, do not credit them. It's that simple. It's the same as sound effects editors and other similar.
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorT!M
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Quoting skipnet50:
Quote:
You are twisting, Tim because you are muddying the line between a Song and a piece of Music which contains NO words.

Any song is "composed" by someone. That can be the same person ("music and lyrics by") or they can be different people. In your example of 'The Greatest American Hero', the music is composed by Mike Post, and the lyrics were written by Stephen Geyer. I agree that makes them both "song writers", and not "composers" for each episode of 'The Greatest American Hero'.

I'd like to extrapolate that to this 'Columbo' example: Mike Post wrote the theme but did NOT score the episode. So I think it's best that we give him a "song writer" credit instead of a "composer" one, similar to 'The Greatest American Hero'. The only difference is that Stephen Geyer did not write any lyrics to Mike Post's 'Mystery Movie Theme' as he did with Mike Post's 'Greatest American Hero' theme - but why should that make any difference in how we credit Mike Post? He did the same for both series: he composed a single piece of theme music. Whether that is accompanied by lyrics or not shouldn't make a difference in how we credit him, as the "composer" credit should remain reserved for the person who actually supplied the score for the movie or tv episode.

And I'll repeat that last thing one more time: I propose that we "reserve" the composer credit for the person(s) that actually scored the movie (or TV episode), and that we use the song writer credit for the person(s) responsible for the theme. It doesn't matter whether that theme has lyrics (see 'The Greatest American Hero') or not (this particular 'Movie Mystery Theme' in 'Columbo') - in both cases Mike Post only wrote a theme, but did not provide the score for the movie/episode. Someone else is credited with "score" or "music", and only THAT person is the movie's composer.
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorTigiHof
Keep your options open
Registered: March 13, 2007
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Quoting T!M:
Quote:
And I'll repeat that last thing one more time: I propose that we "reserve" the composer credit for the person(s) that actually scored the movie (or TV episode), and that we use the song writer credit for the person(s) responsible for the theme. It doesn't matter whether that theme has lyrics (see 'The Greatest American Hero') or not (this particular 'Movie Mystery Theme' in 'Columbo') - in both cases Mike Post only wrote a theme, but did not provide the score for the movie/episode. Someone else is credited with "score" or "music", and only THAT person is the movie's composer.

I agree with this.
Michael
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorWinston Smith
Don't be discommodious
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Tim:

This simple a Song has a specific meaning and you are applying something that simply does NOT apply.
Like I said applying your definition then composer is never needed, all music is song by your definition.

@ Jykke
While I don't like it, you are technically correct, but then that's fine by me too, since I have stopped Contributing, I am fed up with everything having to be so difficult and everything having to be a fight usually led by the same suspects, and that every one seems to know and understand more about the Rules than I do...which quite frankly is BS.

Skip
ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here

Billy Video
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