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Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Contribution Discussion |
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Common Names Redux |
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| Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation:  |  Posts: 3,480 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Addicted2DVD: Quote:
Ken already has the as Uncredited excluded... He has stated that the credit look-up tool goes by the As Credited field... and if you check an uncredited actor in one of your profiles... you will see the As Credited field grayed out where it isn't even used. I've just checked and that's incorrect. Take a look at the actor Teru Shimada, go to The Bridges at Toko-ri, 097360-590647. You'll see their uncredited appearance shows in the credit lookup tool. There are 3 other listings of this name for the same film that don't note the (uncredited) tag, but all 4 are present. And to be precise, the lookup doesn't go only by the As Credited field. It chooses the Credited As data if it's present. If it's not present, it looks to the Name field(s). Credited As does not populate unless it's different from the Name. goodguy pointed that out to me once. So in short, (uncredited) are in the lookup tool and they need to be removed ASAP in my opinion. | | | ...James
"People fake a lot of human interactions, but I feel like I fake them all, and I fake them very well. That’s my burden, I guess." ~ Dexter Morgan | | | | Last edited: by m.cellophane |
| | Registered: March 14, 2007 | | Posts: 1,777 |
| | Posted: | | | | Ahhh...beat me to it!  |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 810 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Addicted2DVD: Quote:
...
Ken already has the as Uncredited excluded... He has stated that the credit look-up tool goes by the As Credited field... and if you check an uncredited actor in one of your profiles... you will see the As Credited field grayed out where it isn't even used. No, he has not. Check it out for yourself. I just checked for 'Zoë Bell' who is listed as uncredited in "Planet Terror: Extended and Unrated: 2-Disc Special Ed., UPC: 796019-803878, Locality: United States". The tools lists her as " Zoë Bell as Munching Mutant (uncredited)". pdf | | | Paul Francis
San Juan Capistrano, CA, USA |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation:  | | Posts: 17,316 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting m.cellophane: Quote:
Quoting Addicted2DVD:
Quote:
Ken already has the as Uncredited excluded... He has stated that the credit look-up tool goes by the As Credited field... and if you check an uncredited actor in one of your profiles... you will see the As Credited field grayed out where it isn't even used.
I've just checked and that's incorrect.
Take a look at the actor Teru Shimada, go to The Bridges at Toko-ri, 097360-590647. You'll see their uncredited appearance shows in the credit lookup tool. There are 3 other listings of this name for the same film that don't note the (uncredited) tag, but all 4 are present.
And to be precise, the lookup doesn't go only by the As Credited field. It chooses the Credited As data if it's present. If it's not present, it looks to the Name field(s). Credited As does not populate unless it's different from the Name. goodguy pointed that out to me once.
So in short, (uncredited) are in the lookup tool and they need to be removed ASAP in my opinion. My mistake... I know Ken has said that it comes from the As Credited field... and when I seen that field grayed out for uncredited I took it for granted it would not use uncredited. So I was just going by his statements and what I saw in the program... then drew my own conclusion... which I shouldn't do. | | | | Pete |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 3,480 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Addicted2DVD: Quote:
My mistake... I know Ken has said that it comes from the As Credited field... and when I seen that field grayed out for uncredited I took it for granted it would not use uncredited. So I was just going by his statements and what I saw in the program... then drew my own conclusion... which I shouldn't do. No worries. This is something I just learned myself. I used to think that the Credited As was always present, either identical to the Name or modified as credited. But goodguy straightened me out on that (something about how the XML export works or something...something he understood  ). So with that in mind, I checked a random uncredited name and that's what I came up with. | | | ...James
"People fake a lot of human interactions, but I feel like I fake them all, and I fake them very well. That’s my burden, I guess." ~ Dexter Morgan | | | | Last edited: by m.cellophane |
| | Registered: August 22, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 1,807 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting m.cellophane: Quote:
Quoting Addicted2DVD:
Quote:
My mistake... I know Ken has said that it comes from the As Credited field... and when I seen that field grayed out for uncredited I took it for granted it would not use uncredited. So I was just going by his statements and what I saw in the program... then drew my own conclusion... which I shouldn't do.
No worries. This is something I just learned myself. I used to think that the Credited As was always present, either identical to the Name or modified as credited. But goodguy straightened me out on that (something about how the XML export works or something...something he understood ). So with that in mind, I checked a random uncredited name and that's what I came up with. I don't know what the internal data is, but when I click on a Cast/Crew member in the editing window DVDP always shows the Credited As field with a name in it. So, (seeing things from a user's point of view), the Credit Look-up tool does always use the Credited As fields, but the Credited As field is just the same as the Name field... unless it is changed to match a different credited name on screen. | | | | -- Enry | | | | Last edited: by White Pongo, Jr. |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 951 |
| | Posted: | | | | My feelings are even if Robert Downey, Jr. is actually more commonly credited, yet our database reflects Robert Downey Jr. as the more common. What does it really matter as long as we have a system in place to determine what common name to use?
One of the positive things I feel have come about with Ken's system of determining the common name it has caused us to update some of these old profiles.
Is Ken's credit lookup tool perfect "NO" but, at least we have a way of helping us determine what to use when it comes to a common name. | | | Are you local?
This is a local shop the strangers you would bring would not understand us, our customs, our local ways. |
| | Registered: March 14, 2007 | Reputation:  |  Posts: 1,029 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting EnryWiki: Quote:
Quoting m.cellophane:
Quote:
Quoting Addicted2DVD:
Quote:
My mistake... I know Ken has said that it comes from the As Credited field... and when I seen that field grayed out for uncredited I took it for granted it would not use uncredited. So I was just going by his statements and what I saw in the program... then drew my own conclusion... which I shouldn't do.
No worries. This is something I just learned myself. I used to think that the Credited As was always present, either identical to the Name or modified as credited. But goodguy straightened me out on that (something about how the XML export works or something...something he understood ). So with that in mind, I checked a random uncredited name and that's what I came up with.
I don't know what the internal data is, but when I click on a Cast/Crew member in the editing window DVDP always shows the Credited As field with a name in it. So, (seeing things from a user's point of view), the Credit Look-up tool does always use the Credited As fields, but the Credited As field is just the same as the Name field... unless it is changed to match a different credited name on screen. In the local DVD Profiler, the tables "ACTORASSGN" and "CreditsAssign" each hold a field "CREDITED_AS". This field is empty in most records. The display of CreditedAs in the Edit window in these cases is provided by program logic, which falls back to generating the CreditedAs name from the common name if it is not present. Likewise, it empties the table field if you save an entry where you have entered a CreditedAs name that matches the common name. A problem with that approach arises, if you change the common name of a cast or crew member via DVD Profiler. Assume, you have a common name "John||Doe Jr."In Profile_1, "John||Doe Jr." is credited as "John Doe Jr.". An empty CreditedAs value is stored.In Profile_2, "John||Doe Jr." is credited as "John Doe, Jr.". The given CreditedAs value is stored.Now you edit some profile and change the common name "John||Doe Jr." to "John||Doe , Jr." This will not change any of the stored CreditedAs values. As a result, Profile_1 no longer matches the credits, because the formerly identical CreditedAs name was not stored. Please note that this problem does not occur if you use the Name Variants plugin to pick a common name. | | | | Matthias | | | | Last edited: by goodguy |
| | Registered: March 14, 2007 | | Posts: 1,777 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Tracer: Quote:
My feelings are even if Robert Downey, Jr. is actually more commonly credited, yet our database reflects Robert Downey Jr. as the more common. What does it really matter as long as we have a system in place to determine what common name to use?
One of the positive things I feel have come about with Ken's system of determining the common name it has caused us to update some of these old profiles.
Is Ken's credit lookup tool perfect "NO" but, at least we have a way of helping us determine what to use when it comes to a common name. Well, for one thing as a name starts to tilt in a direction, 2 years from now we could have to update all of Robert Downey Jr.'s profiles again, because now another variant has become more common. Today the comma-less variant is the most common. After all the profiles are fixed, it is expected that the comma'ed variant becomes most common. Now we have to go back and fix them all over again, according to the rules. That's a whole lot of effort when a simple, "Always/never use commas in the base name," could make this go away. The problem is, according to the rules, the base name changes with the majority. I'm sorry, but that's just ridiculous. Pick a name and stick with it. This migrating name stuff only ensures that things will never get sorted out. Throw in the fact that all the uncredited entries gum up the works because nobody is allowed to edit them, and the whole thing becomes silly. Well, I suppose we are allowed to edit them, we just have to come up with the supporting justification for their existence...something that had never been done in the first place.  | | | | Last edited: by mdnitoil |
| | Registered: March 14, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 6,738 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting mdnitoil: Quote:
Pick a name and stick with it. I fully agree. Who cares that on IMDb ( He said Jehovah!) the Clerks-guy is Kevin Smith(I) and the Ares-from-Xena-guy is Kevin Smith(II) as long as they aren't mixed? | | | Karsten
DVD Collectors Online
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| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 2,759 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting mdnitoil: Quote:
For those who are thinking that the system will cure itself, they are correct up to a point. Many golden age actors will never be cured. I discovered this myself when working on Harry Carey, Jr. Of the 11 titles I own, 2 were comma-less and 5 had a comma. The remaining 4 profiles were for uncredited roles. Presumably the original source for these was IMDB because...wait for it...his name was comma-less. Now, in my personal database I have 6 without comma and 5 with. All well and good, but the choice of a comma for an uncredited role is completely arbitrary...by definition. Now, if I want to actually submit changes to all these uncredited roles, by the rules I am forced to suddenly justify all this junk. Obviously, that is never going to happen, so the name will never get fixed. So, the credit lookup tool is broken in this regard. Uncredited cast should not be listed by this tool because the tool should try to lookup up credits and not uncredits. |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 2,759 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Addicted2DVD: Quote:
Ken already has the as Uncredited excluded... Has he? I'm not sure but I would agree that he should if he hasn't yet. Quote:
He has stated that the credit look-up tool goes by the As Credited field... I'm quite sure he meant that the tools goes by the "credited as" field if there is such an entry and by the name fields otherwise. Or all the credits with an empty "credited as" field would be ignored as well and not only those which are flagged as uncredited. |
| | Registered: April 14, 2007 |  Posts: 415 |
| | Posted: | | | | You know, if Ken changed the program so that "Credited As" became a required field (even if it matches the common name) and then modified the Lookup Tool to only return the results from the "Credited As" field, it wouldn't take as long to discover the real common name.
In a swoop, this would eliminate most of the IMDb data from the CLT... |
| | Registered: August 22, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 1,807 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting goodguy: Quote:
Assume, you have a common name "John||Doe Jr."
In Profile_1, "John||Doe Jr." is credited as "John Doe Jr.". An empty CreditedAs value is stored.
In Profile_2, "John||Doe Jr." is credited as "John Doe, Jr.". The given CreditedAs value is stored.
Now you edit some profile and change the common name "John||Doe Jr." to "John||Doe, Jr." This will not change any of the stored CreditedAs values.
As a result, Profile_1 no longer matches the credits, because the formerly identical CreditedAs name was not stored.
I see. Thus, the choice of the Common Name does affect the results of the Credit Look-up tool!  | | | | -- Enry |
|   | T!M | | Profiling since Dec. 2000 |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: |  Posts: 8,667 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting EnryWiki: Quote:
Thus, the choice of the Common Name does affect the results of the Credit Look-up tool! No, it does not! It's just that you have to be very careful when you're editing (common) "names": when dealing with various name variants there's just no one-click solution to fix all profiles in which a certain person appears. | | | | Last edited: by T!M |
| | Registered: April 14, 2007 | | Posts: 415 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting T!M: Quote:
Quoting EnryWiki:
Quote:
Thus, the choice of the Common Name does affect the results of the Credit Look-up tool!
No, it does not! It does when there is no value in the Credited As field, otherwise it does not. |
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Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Contribution Discussion |
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