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Discussion on International titles vs. Original title for the Main Title field for Asian Films
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DVD Profiler Unlimited Registrantxradman
Registered: June 17, 2002
Registered: March 14, 2007
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The current rules state:

Quote:

Title
Use the title from the film's credits.

For non-English titles, use capitalization rules common to the language of the title “Tout va bien” is correctly capitalized. “Tout Va Bien” is not
If the title appears in multiple languages, use the title that matches the language of the locality and do not include an alternate title ( for instance in another language).

Original Title
The Original Title field serves two general purposes, but in both cases allows for the tracking of the original feature title.  In cases where the title is the original title, leave the Original Title field blank.

Foreign Films: The Original Title field will contain the original title for the main feature in the country of origin.  i.e. A German DVD release for a film originally produced in the United States would have the German title in the Title field and the English title in the Original Title Field.
Modified Titles: The Original Title field will contain the original theatrical title, while the Title field will contain the title of the DVD release.  For instance, for the Special Edition rerelease of There's Something About Mary:
Title: There's Something More About Mary
Original Title: There's Something About Mary


This works great for most western films, but sometimes fails with many Asian films. The problem occurs when their is an International title as well as a Local title for a film. Many Asian films (almost all HK films) have an official international title as well as a local title. Some well known examples might be

International Title (Local Title)

Infernal Affairs (Mou Gaan Dou)
The Promise (Wuji)
Sympathy for Lady Vengeance (Chinjeolhan Geum-ja ssi)
Police Story (Ging chaat goo si)

Some people have used above interpretation of the rules to strip International title from the database for DVDs of these movies released in Asia (non R1 DVDs). I am not sure that this is desirable.

1. International title is just as much an official title as local title for a movie.
2. International title is displayed along side the local title in both the screen and DVD box
3. Original title is not an original title, but a romanized representation of the local title
4. Current program can accomodate both the International title and the romanized original title with some flexibility in interpretation of above rules.
5. Current program cannot accomodate international title, original title, and local title for those DVDs where all three are different

I am a proponent of using the international title (whenever available) as the main title for all films for DVDs from all regions. If the original title is different from the international title, that can be entered into the original title field.

Therefore, I would like to ask Gerri and Ken to reconsider and allow the following for Asian DVDs

1. International title be allowed in the main title field even if it does not match the locality of the DVD, especially when their is no difference between the original title and local title
2. Romanized version of the original title be listed in the original title field if different from the main title
3. Could a fourth title field be added to the program??? (main/international, sort, original, local)

Examples: Main title (Original Title)

Sympathy for Lady Vengeance (Chinjeolhan Geum-ja ssi)
JSA (Gongdong Gyeongbi Guyeok)
Fistful of Dollars (Per un pugno di dollari) 
My Home Theater
 Last edited: by xradman
DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantStar Contributorschultzy
Xbox Live: squeekyfoot
Registered: March 13, 2007
United States Posts: 550
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Please correct me if I am wrong, but when inputting into the database (regardless of region) wouldn't the title the creditted title whether it is the local or international title and then if that title is different that the local/original input that title in the Original Title field.  I know a lot of "foriegn" films have international titles, but those are not the original title.  They are for international release.  Example would be the copy of Death Note I recently purchased which is Japanese is original, but was a Region 3 release

Title - Death Note
Original Title - Desu Noto
(Yes, I know that is not the actual original title)
Schultzy - http://www.michaelschultz.net
grenactics - The art of skillfully fraggin one’s opponent with the use of grenades or other compact explosive devices that are thrown by hand or projected.
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorSquirrelecto
Registered: March 13, 2007
United Kingdom Posts: 793
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Quoting schultzy:
Quote:
Please correct me if I am wrong, but when inputting into the database (regardless of region) wouldn't the title the creditted title whether it is the local or international title and then if that title is different that the local/original input that title in the Original Title field. 


¿ Qué ?

 Last edited: by Squirrelecto
DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantStar Contributorschultzy
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Registered: March 13, 2007
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It made sense in my head and the voices agreed.

If movie is Desu Noto and that is the creditted title and Original title then it goes in the Title field
If it is creditted as Death Note (which is the US/international title) then that would go in the title field and Desu Noto woul dgo in the Original Title field.
Schultzy - http://www.michaelschultz.net
grenactics - The art of skillfully fraggin one’s opponent with the use of grenades or other compact explosive devices that are thrown by hand or projected.
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar Contributorwhispering
On ne passe pas!
Registered: March 13, 2007
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Quoting schultzy:
Quote:
If movie is Desu Noto and that is the creditted title and Original title then it goes in the Title field
If it is creditted as Death Note (which is the US/international title) then that would go in the title field and Desu Noto woul dgo in the Original Title field.

It goes by the cover, if it is a Japanese release which has the katakana for Desu Noto in the cover, that is the correct title. Since it "matches the language of the locality". However if the locality of the DVD is Australia, and the distributor desided to use the Katakana for the cover (used often in Asian movies released in other countries) with the Australian title, the Australian title, which would probably be Death Note, should be used, for the same reason.

Deep down, xradman is asking, if we should use english on every release of every locality, since it's easier for him.

However, international title is nothing like the official title. Often it isnt even an international title, it is an international english title, meaning it is used only in english speaking countries. It is displayed with the original title in only really mainstream movies, not often at all.

Adding whatever title people want to the title field, in localitys not their own, even, is just plain stupidity. This is a program that is use by a multinational userbase, the DB consists of multinational DVD's, more then often from languages you cant speak of, deal with it, xradman. Dont try to twist the DB to your personal preferences. Its so plain obvious and logical, use the title that matches with the locality.
 Last edited: by whispering
DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantStar Contributorschultzy
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ok.  i think whispering and I are seeing eye to eye.
Schultzy - http://www.michaelschultz.net
grenactics - The art of skillfully fraggin one’s opponent with the use of grenades or other compact explosive devices that are thrown by hand or projected.
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar Contributorsynnerman
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Registered: March 13, 2007
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"Deep down, xradman is asking, if we should use english on every release of every locality, since it's easier for him."

First off, in the other thread, xradman pointed out that he is a native Korean speaker, so it is unlikely that it would be easier for him.

But the big issue is that if that locality is using an English title on the cover, why shouldn't we?  After all, we can't reproduce the Asian characters in the database, and the phoentic spelling is up to the interpretation of the translator.  These English titles are often chosen by the filmmakers themselves (Park Chan-wook said he preferred "Sympathy for Mr. Vengeance" as a title to its Korean version, which is why he chose "Sympathy for Lady Vengeance" for the third revenge film).
DVD Profiler Unlimited Registrantxradman
Registered: June 17, 2002
Registered: March 14, 2007
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Quoting whispering:
Quote:
It goes by the cover, if it is a Japanese release which has the katakana for Desu Noto in the cover, that is the correct title. Since it "matches the language of the locality". However if the locality of the DVD is Australia, and the distributor desided to use the Katakana for the cover (used often in Asian movies released in other countries) with the Australian title, the Australian title, which would probably be Death Note, should be used, for the same reason.

Deep down, xradman is asking, if we should use english on every release of every locality, since it's easier for him.

However, international title is nothing like the official title. Often it isnt even an international title, it is an international english title, meaning it is used only in english speaking countries. It is displayed with the original title in only really mainstream movies, not often at all.


I am not questioning what is correct according to the current rules. You are absolutely correct in interpretation of the current rules. What I am trying to do is to see if we can perhaps modify the rules to best accomodate as many people as we can.

As you stated, DVDP is an international program with users from all over the world. In addition, people now are open to watching and collecting movies from all over the world. Like it or not, English is probably now the defacto international language that is used for almost all international titles (I can't think of one international title that is not in English) and one that most DVDP users have some familiarity with.

I think the current version of the rules were made more for entering foreign (non English) versions of English/USA movies than the other way around. Issues come up when we are looking at non-English DVDs from the original country. The way the rules are written forbids the use of available international (English) title even though we are leaving the original title field empty.

Example:

R3 HK version of Mou Gaan Dou (Infernal Affairs): The correct local title for the movie and the DVD is Mou Gaan Dou and that is entered into the main title field per current rules. Since the original title and the local title are the same, nothing is entered for the original title and the field is left unused.

R3 Korean version of Chinjeolhan Geum-ja ssi (Sympathy for Lady Vengeance): The correct local title for the movie and the DVD is Chinjeolhan Geum-ja ssi and that is entered into the main title field per current rules. Again the original title field is left unused and wasted.

R0 HK version of Ging chaat goo si (Police Story): Same story even though the International title of Police Story is just as valid a title for this movie as the Cantonese title.

Why can't we be flexible enough to modify the rules so that we can enter both the international title and the local title when there is currently enough field to accomodate it? What do we as a collector gain by forbidding the title, Police Story from R0 HK DVD profile? Will anyone besides those who speak Cantonese be able to use or search for this title? Conversely, what do you lose as a collector by including title, Police Story in the DVD profile? Am I, as a Korean collector of Korean DVD, upset that Sympathy for Lady Vengeance appears in the profile along with Chinjeolhan Geum-ja ssi?  No. In fact, I am disappointed that I can't have both valid titles in my profile.

Therefore, I am simply asking the rules arbiter Gerri and Ken to consider such a modification. I think it's a win-win situation for all collectors when well known, valid international titles are not ignored. Comments are welcome.
My Home Theater
 Last edited: by xradman
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar Contributorwhispering
On ne passe pas!
Registered: March 13, 2007
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Quoting xradman:
Quote:
I think the current version of the rules were made more for entering foreign (non English) versions of English/USA movies than the other way around.


AFAIK the current rules were made by a group of people from many countries. They werent made for US DVD's, but to accomodate all localitys.

Quoting xradman:
Quote:
Issues come up when we are looking at non-English DVDs from the original country. The way the rules are written forbids the use of available international (English) title even though we are leaving the original title field empty.


What you are saying, is like adding crew that hasnt got a field for it, by using the other fields. Its misleading and incorrect information. The program is aiming to be as correct as possible, not to have all info in any way possible. I am all upto adding a field for an "alternative title", where one could add the International Title, Working title etc.


Quoting xradman:
Quote:
R3 HK version


Hong Kong has nothing to do with the issues on this topic, official languages there are Chinese and English. So if the title is in both languages on the cover (like it almoust always is), both languages "matches the language of the locality".

Quoting xradman:
Quote:
Why can't we be flexible enough to modify the rules so that we can enter both the international title and the local title when there is currently enough field to accomodate it? What do we as a collector gain by forbidding the title


We gain accurat and correct information.

Quoting xradman:
Quote:
Am I, as a Korean collector of Korean DVD, upset that Sympathy for Lady Vengeance appears in the profile along with Chinjeolhan Geum-ja ssi?  No. In fact, I am disappointed that I can't have both valid titles in my profile.


You can add whatever title you want in your local database.

Quoting xradman:
Quote:
Therefore, I am simply asking the rules arbiter Gerri and Ken to consider such a modification. I think it's a win-win situation for all collectors when well known, valid international titles are not ignored. Comments are welcome.


You are asking to give up the one thing that makes this program superior to any other such program. The correctness of the information. Whatever the question is, the one thing that always wins is accuracy.
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorWinston Smith
Don't be discommodious
Registered: March 13, 2007
United States Posts: 21,610
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xradman:

You can do anything you want in your local Profile, we have a bigger world to worry about than simply Korea and the U.S. and the Rules were designed to try accomodate every user, including the German user who just MIGHT possess the titles that you refer to. Just as I might. Keep that in mind, that there is a big world out there, it's not all about Asia or North America. If you want to do something that is culturally specific, but outside the rules you are free to do so and if you lock your titles and upload Invelos servers will clone your data so that everyone who views your collection will be able to see you culturally specific data. Sorry guy, I am not politically correct and am not overly sensitive to people whose sole aim seems to be to try to impose their culture on the rest of the world. Let's be realistic here, you are using Profiler because it is a good product, but ummm I don't want to come off as trying to offend you here but want to make the point, just how many native Koreans do you think we have using this product. Probably more than just you to be sure, but in the overall scheme of things, not very many. Again I apologize if I come across harsh or offensive but from where I sit, it looks to me like you have always tried to make Profiler culturally sensitive, if Ken wants to that's his call and hios business but....thsi could too easily lead to a political discussion. I mean we have some Muslim imams trying to remake this country in their image...it ain't gonna happen.; if you see where I am coming from.

Yes whispering the rules were written by ns internationally  diverse group of people, literally all over the world.

Skip
ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here

Billy Video
DVD Profiler Unlimited Registrantxradman
Registered: June 17, 2002
Registered: March 14, 2007
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Quoting skipnet50:
Quote:
xradman:

You can do anything you want in your local Profile, we have a bigger world to worry about than simply Korea and the U.S. and the Rules were designed to try accomodate every user, including the German user who just MIGHT possess the titles that you refer to. Just as I might. Keep that in mind, that there is a big world out there, it's not all about Asia or North America. If you want to do something that is culturally specific, but outside the rules you are free to do so and if you lock your titles and upload Invelos servers will clone your data so that everyone who views your collection will be able to see you culturally specific data. Sorry guy, I am not politically correct and am not overly sensitive to people whose sole aim seems to be to try to impose their culture on the rest of the world. Let's be realistic here, you are using Profiler because it is a good product, but ummm I don't want to come off as trying to offend you here but want to make the point, just how many native Koreans do you think we have using this product. Probably more than just you to be sure, but in the overall scheme of things, not very many. Again I apologize if I come across harsh or offensive but from where I sit, it looks to me like you have always tried to make Profiler culturally sensitive, if Ken wants to that's his call and hios business but....thsi could too easily lead to a political discussion. I mean we have some Muslim imams trying to remake this country in their image...it ain't gonna happen.; if you see where I am coming from.

Yes whispering the rules were written by ns internationally  diverse group of people, literally all over the world.

Skip


Skip,

I think you are mistaken again. I am trying to make the profiler useful to people other than Korean. The way the current rules are written, you CAN'T have Sympathy for Lady Vengeance in the profile. I am asking that this valid international title be allowed in addition to Chinjeolhan Geum-ja ssi.  Because you don't own this disc (R3 Korea), you may not be aware of the ping pong that happens with this title.  Currently the title has Sympathy for Lady Vengeance as the title. Then a rule's advocate comes along and changes the title to Chinjeolhan Geum-ja ssi citing the rules. Then it get's changed back and so on. I no longer participate in these happenings because of these confrontations.  Perhaps I was wrong to think that asking for a discussion was still allowed in these forum.
My Home Theater
DVD Profiler Unlimited Registrantxradman
Registered: June 17, 2002
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Skip,

You don't have to participate in every thread in this forum. I realize that people have areas of interest and that perhaps this doesn't rank very high in their list of interest. It does matter to me.  If you have no interest, please move on and realize that no one is forcing you to spend your time reading this. 

Please also realize that I am not disputing what the rules state.  What I am soliciting is discussion on how rules may be modified to allow the use of International titles in addition to local titles for non-English titles.  If this is not the correct forum for this kind of discussion, please excuse my intrusion.

To summarize, this is a solicitation for discussion on International titles for "foreign" movies on released in their local region, NOT for foreign titles released in English speaking region.  For "foreign" movies released in their own country, main title and the original titles are presumably the same.  According to the current rules, there is no leeway to include the valid International title into the profile.  If we could relax or modify the rules on titles, we can include both local title and international title into the profile. 

Example:

R3 Korean DVD of Chinjeolhan Geum-ja ssi (local Korean title) AKA Sympathy for Lady Vengeance (official international title)

Under strict interpretation of current rules -

  Main title: Chinjeolhan Geum-ja ssi (title corresponding to DVD locality of Korea)
  Orginal title: left empty (since original title is same as the local title)

Proposal #1

  Main title: Chinjeolhan Geum-ja ssi (title corresponding to DVD locality of Korea)
  Original title: Sympathy for Lady Vengeance (if we relax the rule to allow original or alternate title)

Proposal #2

  Main title: Sympathy for Lady Vengeance (if we modify the rule to use a common international title for the main title for all regions - personal preference)
  Original title: Chinjeolhan Geum-ja ssi (down side is that this does not leave room for local title if the DVD is released with title different from orginal local title or international in countries other than the original country or English speaking country - ie. DVD released in Germany with title different from the international title)

Frankly, as a Korean, I don't see a downside to INCLUDING an international title so that people other than Korean can make better use of the profile.

Finally, I am not advocating breaking the rules for submitting wrong profile. I know I can do anything locally with my profiles. I would not submit wrong profiles until we get an official policy change blessed by Ken or Gerri. But how are you suppose to bring up these deficiencies without discussing it???
My Home Theater
 Last edited: by xradman
DVD Profiler Unlimited Registrantxradman
Registered: June 17, 2002
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Quoting whispering:
Quote:
AFAIK the current rules were made by a group of people from many countries. They werent made for US DVD's, but to accomodate all localitys.


All rules can be discussed. Perhaps when this rule was first devised, people didn't think of the consequences. I remember quite an upheaval when people started changing names of all Jackie Chan HK DVDs to romanized Cantonese.


Quote:
What you are saying, is like adding crew that hasnt got a field for it, by using the other fields. Its misleading and incorrect information. The program is aiming to be as correct as possible, not to have all info in any way possible.


I think inclusion of a well known official international title is perhaps a bit more important than including assistant to the second unit director or a working title to a feature


Quote:
Hong Kong has nothing to do with the issues on this topic, official languages there are Chinese and English. So if the title is in both languages on the cover (like it almoust always is), both languages "matches the language of the locality".


That's how they got around the issue of changing the titles of all popular HK movies into romanized Cantonese only. But what about Korean, Japanese, Chinese, or any non-English movies?  Are international collectors of these movies any less important?


Quote:
We gain accurat and correct information.


How is it any more accurate or correct to exclude a valid, official, and often better known international title from a profile


Quote:
You can add whatever title you want in your local database.


It's not about my profile. I know I can do whatever I want with my profile. I was perhaps wrong to think that this discussion on including international title might be beneficial to the global DVDP community.


Quote:
You are asking to give up the one thing that makes this program superior to any other such program. The correctness of the information. Whatever the question is, the one thing that always wins is accuracy.


Again, I don't see how excluding an official, international title makes any profile any more correct or accurate.

In general, I thought being inclusive is almost always better than being exclusive, or am I mistaken?
My Home Theater
DVD Profiler Unlimited Registrantxradman
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Registered: March 14, 2007
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Quoting schultzy:
Quote:
It made sense in my head and the voices agreed.

If movie is Desu Noto and that is the creditted title and Original title then it goes in the Title field
If it is creditted as Death Note (which is the US/international title) then that would go in the title field and Desu Noto woul dgo in the Original Title field.

It's not a problem if you bought an Australian version or US version of the movie, because the title of the movie for the DVD locality would be "Death Note" and that is what you would put down for the main title. You would then put "Desu Noto" for the original title since that was the original Japanese title.

Problem comes up when a collector buys a Japan DVD of this same movie.  Main title would be "Desu Noto" because that matches the locality of the DVD. You would leave the original title empty because the main title is same as the original title. You would have no where to put "Death Note" for this profile even though that might have been it's official, international title, shown alongside kana for "Desu Noto" in the DVD box and on screen.
My Home Theater
 Last edited: by xradman
DVD Profiler Unlimited Registrantxradman
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 Last edited: by xradman
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar Contributorwhispering
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The thing i never understood about you, xradman, is that you are insisting on bending the rules so that false information could be added. Why the hell dont you use that energy for the thing you really are asking for, a slot for an alternative title.

You are considering yourself superioir to all other users, go check forums on any genre, you well begin to see a pattern, people want to use the original title. Cause no matter where you go, that will always be the one used, it will always be correct. And this is just from the "buying from other localitys" POV. We really shouldnt forget the fact that these are other localitys that do not use english as the chosen language. Also you are referring to China, Japan and Korea, when in reality this rule of yours would affect dozens of localitys, just so that the English speaking people that buy their movies from Asia, could have them in english (oh the irony).

Quoting xradman:
Quote:
You would have no where to put "Death Note" for this profile even though that might have been it's official, international title, shown alongside kana for "Desu Noto" in the DVD box and on screen.


A title that is used to promote the movie for western distributors is hardly official.
 Last edited: by whispering
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