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| Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation:  |  Posts: 17,329 |
| | Posted: | | | | Whether the rule should be changed is not something I am even thinking about at this moment... nor should be a matter in this section of the forums since there is a section for it. rules change discussion should be brought to the Contribution Rules Committee Forum.
But on a personal note I will always be for if they are credited they deserve to be credited in profiler... that is why I want to see the new check box that was requested in the Feature Request Forum.
What the Charmed example shows me... that if they didn't want the main cast credited in every episode they have ways to make it so. In cases where they are not removed from the opening credits by a different version or what have you... they do want them credited for every episode... and so we should do the same. That is my opinion on the matter.
And as I said... if I had it the way I wish Ken would do the (Credits Only) Check Box so that everyone can be happy. Those that wants the credits preserved As Credited and also let everyone know which episodes the main cast is not in. | | | | Pete |
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| Registered: May 9, 2007 |  Posts: 1,536 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Agrare: Quote:
Some serious rewording of this rule is in order I thinkI suggest opening credits just need to be not allowed for cast at all unless there are no actors listed in the end credits.
-Agrare That would be a generalisation that goes too far. Sometimes the main cast is listed in the opening credits, and not repeated at all in the end credits. Surely we wouldn't want to miss out on those. Other times the main cast is duplicated with the rest, and then we have a problem if there is a conflict in completeness, or ordering, or otherwise. The present rule may need to written down more clearly, but works well in most cases. | | | | Hans |
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| Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation:  | | Posts: 6,635 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Addicted2DVD: Quote:
Quoting wintermute115:
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Quoting Addicted2DVD:
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It may be more accurate... but it would be against the rules.
It would also be against the rules to provide a title for Tim Burton's Batman, as one does not appear on the front cover, but no-one seems to mind ignoring the rules in that case.
I ignore no rules in my contributions or with my voting. I am a very literal person... and a very rules oriented person. If I contribute to any field I do it per the rules.... if I vote on any contribution it is per the rules only. What others do is beyond my control... but I would never ignore a rule. So is your title for 'Batman' blank (or would it be if you owned that DVD)? | | | | Hal |
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| Registered: March 26, 2007 | | Posts: 196 |
| | Posted: | | | | I have to agree that this thread now belongs in the Contribution Rules Committee forum. The rule as-written clearly has edge cases that do not improve the fidelity of the data in the database, and therefore should be revisited. |
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| Registered: May 9, 2007 | | Posts: 1,536 |
| | Posted: | | | | Just a suggestion, but what I locally do is put the main cast (that is listed in the opening credits of all episodes) before the episode dividers, and then use episode dividers for the cast from the end credits. Same for crew. | | | | Hans |
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| Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 951 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Staid S Barr: Quote:
That would be a generalisation that goes too far. Sometimes the main cast is listed in the opening credits, and not repeated at all in the end credits. Surely we wouldn't want to miss out on those. Other times the main cast is duplicated with the rest, and then we have a problem if there is a conflict in completeness, or ordering, or otherwise. This is true with most TV shows I have profiled the main cast in the opening credits are not repeated in the end credits. | | | Are you local?
This is a local shop the strangers you would bring would not understand us, our customs, our local ways. |
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| Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 17,329 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting hal9g: Quote:
Quoting Addicted2DVD:
Quote:
Quoting wintermute115:
Quote:
Quoting Addicted2DVD:
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It may be more accurate... but it would be against the rules.
It would also be against the rules to provide a title for Tim Burton's Batman, as one does not appear on the front cover, but no-one seems to mind ignoring the rules in that case.
I ignore no rules in my contributions or with my voting. I am a very literal person... and a very rules oriented person. If I contribute to any field I do it per the rules.... if I vote on any contribution it is per the rules only. What others do is beyond my control... but I would never ignore a rule.
So is your title for 'Batman' blank (or would it be if you owned that DVD)? How is that even a question that matters to this discussion? How I have it locally is of no matter... as I said... and you can see above where I put in bold.... "I ignore no rules in my contributions or with my voting". There is MANY rules I do not agree with... but when it comes to Contributing and Voting I will do so strictly per the rules. But that does not necessarily mean that is what I do for my local database. the local database don't have to conform to any rule other then ones I set for myself. EDIT: But if I wanted to contribute a change with such a title... what I would do is PM Ken first and ask him how to handle it since that is something fairly serious that is not covered in the rules. Then I could go by that... and hopefully it would also lite a little fire under him to put some sort of exception in the rules for those cases. My personal preference would be if no title on front of the case take the title from the spine... if not there... go to credit block on back of case... if not there (still a logo) Then the credits. If by chance there is nothing but logo on all the above I would want Ken to decided what to do from there. | | | | Pete | | | | Last edited: by Addicted2DVD |
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| Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 17,329 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Staid S Barr: Quote:
Just a suggestion, but what I locally do is put the main cast (that is listed in the opening credits of all episodes) before the episode dividers, and then use episode dividers for the cast from the end credits. Same for crew. That was discussed many times before the rule for it... and it turned out (and I agree) that it works best to have them credited for every episode within the dividers.. and that is what Ken agreed with to put into the rules. Mainly because it is not always easy to determine main cast by the credits alone. And as I said before... there is some that the opening credits were different depending on who was in the actual episode... so you would have conflicting opening credits. | | | | Pete |
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| Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 951 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Staid S Barr: Quote:
Just a suggestion, but what I locally do is put the main cast (that is listed in the opening credits of all episodes) before the episode dividers, and then use episode dividers for the cast from the end credits. Same for crew. Some shows that have equal billed actors do not bill them in the same order for each episode. I think trying to the re-write rules because a TV series credits an actor that doesn't actually appear in an episode is a bad idea. What's next an actor that originally appears in an episode but, the DVD release is syndicated episodes where the actor basically gets edited out of the syndicated version. Are we going to start removing them from the profile as well? | | | Are you local?
This is a local shop the strangers you would bring would not understand us, our customs, our local ways. |
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| Registered: May 25, 2007 | | Posts: 176 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Addicted2DVD: Quote:
EDIT:
But if I wanted to contribute a change with such a title... what I would do is PM Ken first and ask him how to handle it since that is something fairly serious that is not covered in the rules. Then I could go by that... and hopefully it would also lite a little fire under him to put some sort of exception in the rules for those cases. My personal preference would be if no title on front of the case take the title from the spine... if not there... go to credit block on back of case... if not there (still a logo) Then the credits. If by chance there is nothing but logo on all the above I would want Ken to decided what to do from there. Personally, I'd be happier starting with the spine, and moving to the front cover if there's nothing on the spine. You're less likely to have to deal with possessives or other confusing verbiage around the title on the spine. Quoting Tracer: Quote:
Quoting Staid S Barr:
Quote:
Just a suggestion, but what I locally do is put the main cast (that is listed in the opening credits of all episodes) before the episode dividers, and then use episode dividers for the cast from the end credits. Same for crew.
Some shows that have equal billed actors do not bill them in the same order for each episode.
I think trying to the re-write rules because a TV series credits an actor that doesn't actually appear in an episode is a bad idea. What's next an actor that originally appears in an episode but, the DVD release is syndicated episodes where the actor basically gets edited out of the syndicated version. Are we going to start removing them from the profile as well? Well, it is DVD Profiler and not Original TV Broadcast Profiler... |
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| Registered: May 22, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 1,033 |
| | Posted: | | | | responding to a few threads so not going to bother quoting as it'd get ugly
RE Charmed example: just because there are ways for them to do it and not include all cast members is irrevelant. They could do that same thing without having opening credits at all. We don't know why that decision was made or who made it. Maybe its part of a specific actors contract. Maybe they simply don't want to spend the extra money to make 4 versions to remove a few actors from a few episodes. Just because the actors are listed there doesn't mean 'they' (whoever they are) wants it that way. And if that is the reason, I could easily argue that we should stop including uncredited actors ever because if 'they' wanted those actors credited they would have done so.
RE not including opening credits. I don't generally buy TV Shows on dvd. When I watch TV shows its generally on TV, I don't generally pay attention to the credits (opening or ending). I have not done any contributions for TV cast/crew. So if it is the case that sometimes the main cast is only in opening credits and not in closing I wouldn't know. I'll agree that if thats the case my suggestion wouldn't work, but a simple exception could be added that if no actors from the opening credits listed in the closing credits you may list the actors from the opening credits. Or the rule can be written in some completley different way. As long as its clear on how to handle these different situations.
finally, I see no problem discussing whether or not the rule should be changed here. As I see it we've established that based on interpretation both ways can be seen as correct. The discussion has moved from specific example to the rule as a whole. I see no problem offering opinions on the best way to handle it. (a check box is a good idea, as if they are identified somehow they can also easily be removed by people who don't want them locally)
I don't plan on joining the rules 'committee' I don't have the time to spare that I would spend in another forum. IMHO it's not much of a committee if anyone can just request access and 'join up'. I see no problem for discussions like these to happen, in this forum, where everyone can voice their opinion and then those in the Rules Committee can discuss/evaluate the ideas and make a decision as to what the rule should be.
I guess I see Rules Committee and think of it differently than what it seems to actually be. By the sound of it, it seems more like Rule Discussion and then Ken/Gerri decide what the rule and its wording ultimately is. But the makeup of a committee is entirely off topic.
-Agrare |
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| Registered: May 9, 2007 | | Posts: 1,536 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Tracer: Quote:
Quoting Staid S Barr:
Quote:
Just a suggestion, but what I locally do is put the main cast (that is listed in the opening credits of all episodes) before the episode dividers, and then use episode dividers for the cast from the end credits. Same for crew.
Some shows that have equal billed actors do not bill them in the same order for each episode.
I think trying to the re-write rules because a TV series credits an actor that doesn't actually appear in an episode is a bad idea. What's next an actor that originally appears in an episode but, the DVD release is syndicated episodes where the actor basically gets edited out of the syndicated version. Are we going to start removing them from the profile as well? I am not proposing to rewrite the rules, on the contrary. Maybe a clarification, but that's all. I am only offering a suggestion for those who are not happy with the way the rules work out in some particular cases. | | | | Hans |
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| Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 21,610 |
| | Posted: | | | | Agrare:
Congratulations...boy do I have no comment to make. I could expand quite a bit on what you said but it's not necessary...well done, sir.
Skip | | | ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here
Billy Video |
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| Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 2,394 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Staid S Barr: Quote:
Quoting Addicted2DVD:
Quote:
I seldomly do parent profile when I do the child profiles (and for the record don't go by your cast/crew project on Skip... I seldomly see him do any contributions for TV Series... and I always use child profiles when available)...I do not update the parent profile because I do not find it as easy to combine them in notepad as others do... and I would use your cast/crew editor but for some reason I just can't get that to work at all... I used to be able to use it... but then once I had to reformat windows it hasn't worked since.
I also find it difficult to combine in notepad. So I do it the other way round: I fill the parent profile, copy that entirely, and remove the unwanted parts per child profile. And locally, I only keep the data in the child profiles. Check out Tom Gaines' Cast/Crew Editor program. It works fine and lets you combine casts/crews that you've saved to the Clipboard from within Profiler. With Tom's program it's easier to do combine child profiles than to go the other way. | | | Another Ken (not Ken Cole)
Badges? We ain't got no badges. We don't need no badges. I don't have to show you any stinking badges.
DVD Profiler user since June 15, 2001 |
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| Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 2,394 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting T!M: Quote:
I just don't get why you repeatedly keep posting demeaning remarks about people who choose to handle these sets differently. If you find Skip demeaning for expressing his opinion that maintaining data at the parent level is lunacy, it's your problem not his. You and he both have skins that are way too thin, IMO, and read insults where they don't exist, other than in your minds. | | | Another Ken (not Ken Cole)
Badges? We ain't got no badges. We don't need no badges. I don't have to show you any stinking badges.
DVD Profiler user since June 15, 2001 | | | | Last edited: by kdh1949 |
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| Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 2,394 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Addicted2DVD: Quote:
And this is nothing new at all for TV Series profiles... when it comes to the main cast... that is credited on every single episode... they have always been credited for every single episode... whether they actually appeared in the episode or not.... because they are credited for every episode. That is how it has always been. Pete, Remember, you should NEVER use generalizations.  As I pointed out (maybe not in this thread) in the early days of TV they OFTEN did not credit the main cast in every single episode. I cited Gunsmoke where I believe only James Arness and maybe Dennis Weaver was credited in EVERY episode in the beginning. Gunsmoke didn't name the cast in the opening credits -- and the end credits only showed Milburn Stone and Amanda Blake for the episodes where Doc and Kitty actually appeared. | | | Another Ken (not Ken Cole)
Badges? We ain't got no badges. We don't need no badges. I don't have to show you any stinking badges.
DVD Profiler user since June 15, 2001 |
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